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  #31  
Old 12-12-2014, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eweissenbach View Post
it seems to me that the threads that have political overtones, or controversial topics have proliferated on TOTV lately. I have participated in some of them, and usually come away with a bad taste in my mouth, both for my participation, and for others. I find that these threads usually cause people to become defensive and confrontational, and virtually everyone responds predictably according to their political persuasion and almost no one opens their mind to larger questions real introspection, not that I am surprised by that. I used to participate sporadically in the opt-in political forum, and found it more entertaining than informative, but at least most everyone was interested in the word jousting that regularly took place. When these issues get on the general board it seems that the tone quickly turns rather ugly with a bit of ganging up and even bullying occasionally resulting. On the poli forum I could tolerate it, and even enjoy it, but on the general forum it seems to be something else to me. I find myself losing respect for people that I otherwise respect and enjoy hearing from. For that reason I have decided to try my best to avoid those topics that might be interesting, but will inevitably devolve into animosity. That is not what I come to this site for, or what I joined for in the first place. To me, this is a great forum for information about TV, and the lives of the people in and interested in, TV. Please don't take this as a criticism of anyone, it is just an observation of what I see, and how I can best be a good citizen of the site. I would like to see the opt in poli forum return, but unless and until it does I will do my best to stay upbeat and out of the fray.
I agree. Sometimes it seems like everything has political overtones. Talk about a book, food, or doctors, and there are those who see only politics.
  #32  
Old 12-12-2014, 07:46 PM
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I have several reactions …

The sometimes emotional discussions and talking past each, while lamentable, is also IMHO unavoidable and simply a reflection of the reality we live in. Look at the news and the breakouts for any given issue … Ferguson, CIA report, election results etc. I think, if we step back and look at the big picture, we recognize we are going through a societal evolution that happens predictably over the course of several generations. (The book, “The Fourth Turning” has a good analysis of this view). For those of us who remember high school history, the “Era of Good Feelings” was replaced two generations later by a civil war. My point is, if we are to have any discussions of political or current events topics, most of us won’t be around to see a world where civility reigns in discourse … not that it ever truly has. When a very large group of the citizens agree on a world view, the discussions will taper down … why not, we would all then be in agreement. We are obviously in kind of an alternative state at present, and it’s been evolving since the 1960s.

I was not on TOTV during the days of the prior political board that people keep referring to so I don’t have firsthand knowledge. But, I think I have the gist of what happened … name calling and all that. But, seems to me that can be moderated and dealt with. The other factor, which I totally concede, is the business model of TOTV. If they want “no politics” and prefer for business reasons to keep it pretty much at the level described in the sticky note “…We strive for this forum to be only happiness, fluff and light” then it’s their right to do that.

However, with all the things of true importance going on in the world, and having to be hamstrung or prevented from discussing these issues seems to have a very large downside … pretty boring. Maybe that’s good business here in The Villages? It’s also pretty clear … if we did have a dedicated political thread, then no one would force people to go there. In fact, that’s a microcosm of the entire philosophical divide is it not … “free market” (go there if you want, but if not don’t) vs “statism” (hey, we forbid it)

I like TOTV, and will continue to look and participate from time to time, but I have recently looked to more flexible boards that permit people (within guidelines etc) to discuss those issues that truly impact our lives. Unfortunately, and as it turns out, life is not “happiness & fluff” after all.
  #33  
Old 12-12-2014, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rubicon View Post
Hi12ridehd:

I agree with your post and especially the name calling portion. In fact in today's society people debating actually believe name calling is their argument.

Like many posters here I tire quickly of the vanilla flavor topics. I don't post nor do I believe anything said by me will change anyone's mind... but so many topics need a national conversation .

the riots are a clear example of our nation's inability to debate.

the political forum was stimulating and I believe it could have continued if the Admin just shut down the name callers
Good post and I agree. BTK's thoughts are on point too. And once again, I state my devout belief in the 'refrigerator' concept. One doesn't have to eat every damn thing in the big white box. Close the door!

I never got involved in the political thread or section but I felt it was a loss to have it closed because of a few screwballs who could have been dealt with individually.

Civil discourse does not have to be 'nicey nicey' or pleasing to most, it just has to be civil and respectful, in a two way street sort of way.

Good thread Ed.
  #34  
Old 12-13-2014, 09:27 AM
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Good post and I agree. BTK's thoughts are on point too. And once again, I state my devout belief in the 'refrigerator' concept. One doesn't have to eat every damn thing in the big white box. Close the door!

I never got involved in the political thread or section but I felt it was a loss to have it closed because of a few screwballs who could have been dealt with individually.

Civil discourse does not have to be 'nicey nicey' or pleasing to most, it just has to be civil and respectful, in a two way street sort of way.

Good thread Ed.
refrigerator concept
  #35  
Old 12-13-2014, 12:52 PM
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Are we a reflection of Fox and MSNBC or are they a reflection of us?

Many people turn to those types of entertainment news outlets as their main, if not only, source of information about the world around them. With one source of information, thinking becomes more in line with that source. Because inflammatory news will trump fact based news in ratings any day of the week, the sources become more tilted as they scramble for more viewers.

What we now have are two major "news" outlets that are far more interested in pushing their skewed agenda than in actually reporting news that has been investigated, fact checked, and vetted.

With so many people engaged in one outlet or the other as their major source of information, it is easy to see how political forums can quickly become a tug of war between two complete extremes of the spectrum. Sadly, many of us who are a blend of viewpoints end up not participating in political forums for fear of being harassed rather than enlightened.
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2014, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Wandatime View Post
Are we a reflection of Fox and MSNBC or are they a reflection of us?

Many people turn to those types of entertainment news outlets as their main, if not only, source of information about the world around them. With one source of information, thinking becomes more in line with that source. Because inflammatory news will trump fact based news in ratings any day of the week, the sources become more tilted as they scramble for more viewers.

What we now have are two major "news" outlets that are far more interested in pushing their skewed agenda than in actually reporting news that has been investigated, fact checked, and vetted.

With so many people engaged in one outlet or the other as their major source of information, it is easy to see how political forums can quickly become a tug of war between two complete extremes of the spectrum. Sadly, many of us who are a blend of viewpoints end up not participating in political forums for fear of being harassed rather than enlightened.
Well said, Wanda. Seems to me that most people don't want to "discuss" politics, they want to "argue" politics. Such discussions lead nowhere so I stay out of them.
  #37  
Old 12-13-2014, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Wandatime View Post
Are we a reflection of Fox and MSNBC or are they a reflection of us?

Many people turn to those types of entertainment news outlets as their main, if not only, source of information about the world around them. With one source of information, thinking becomes more in line with that source. Because inflammatory news will trump fact based news in ratings any day of the week, the sources become more tilted as they scramble for more viewers.

What we now have are two major "news" outlets that are far more interested in pushing their skewed agenda than in actually reporting news that has been investigated, fact checked, and vetted.

With so many people engaged in one outlet or the other as their major source of information, it is easy to see how political forums can quickly become a tug of war between two complete extremes of the spectrum. Sadly, many of us who are a blend of viewpoints end up not participating in political forums for fear of being harassed rather than enlightened.
I don't think those of us who feel pssionately about our beleifs are single sourced on ANY subject. And I will venture a guess that represents the majority....a guess.

As far as the character or following or bias of the different providers we all have our respective opinions of what they may or may not be...right or wrong!

The moat disheartening of your commentary is the last sentence which I have highlighted a portion. We all KNOW those who are destined to do nothing more than stir the pot or bait or name call are in the minorty of participants....and at a very, very low single digit % of the total. Yet when discussing political forums these few and their unacceptable behavior is all that people seem to want to highlight. And then there are those with a fear of being harassed and hence decide not to participate.

That is just so wrong and plays directly into the objective of the smattering few. The best defense as proven by most of our previous experience is to ignore them. They have no basis to continue if there is no patter with them.

Why not join the majority of us who are capable of discussions, including contested issues or disagreement and enjoy and learn from the valid discussions. These rabble rousing posters are akin to terrorist in one manner of speaking as they, by your own words, generate fear. Join the rest of us and do not give them that satisfaction.
  #38  
Old 12-13-2014, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Wandatime View Post
Are we a reflection of Fox and MSNBC or are they a reflection of us?

Many people turn to those types of entertainment news outlets as their main, if not only, source of information about the world around them. With one source of information, thinking becomes more in line with that source. Because inflammatory news will trump fact based news in ratings any day of the week, the sources become more tilted as they scramble for more viewers.

What we now have are two major "news" outlets that are far more interested in pushing their skewed agenda than in actually reporting news that has been investigated, fact checked, and vetted.

With so many people engaged in one outlet or the other as their major source of information, it is easy to see how political forums can quickly become a tug of war between two complete extremes of the spectrum. Sadly, many of us who are a blend of viewpoints end up not participating in political forums for fear of being harassed rather than enlightened.
Excellent thoughts. I agree with you, that these quasi news outlets help create partisans that believe that truth and good is only on their side and an opposing point of view is worthy of disdain and ridicule. I am sure that many will disagree in a predictable way, but Al Sharpton = Shawn Hannity = Ed Schultz = Rush Limbaugh etc. etc. As to BTKs point that these discussions need to take place, I would say two things. First, any discussion on a relatively small forum such as this is not going to cause any real change for the better, it is simply a place where people can come to vent. Second, I cannot remember a single time on the poli board, or general discussion, where someone conceded that something posted on a controversial subject caused them to rethink or reevaluate their position, rather they continue to belabor the same talking points. After awhile on the poli board I could predict with near certainty, how each of the dozen or so regular posters would respond to almost anything, in fact this will probably elicit at least one predictable retort.
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  #39  
Old 12-13-2014, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by billethkid View Post
I don't think those of us who feel pssionately about our beleifs are single sourced on ANY subject. And I will venture a guess that represents the majority....a guess.
Billie, I agree that YOU are not single sourced, however I would not extend that compliment to a majority or even a significant minority among political Partisans.
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  #40  
Old 12-13-2014, 02:18 PM
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Billie, I agree that YOU are not single sourced, however I would not extend that compliment to a majority or even a significant minority among political Partisans.

I think that most have a certain view of the world that they don't want interrupted. All of us think we are right.

I dislike people who down any group of people without thinking about it a LOT. Not all rich or poor people are corrupt. Not all black or white people are good. Not all religious or non religious people are holders of the truth. Not all bright people are smart. Not all non Mensa people are uneducated and incorrect. Not all people who have always voted one way are right nor are all people who have voted both ways.

Sometimes we have to learn to say things without malice even if we are mad...and talking about our values and having them challenged does make us mad. To call someone uncaring, without compassion, is hurtful, and only ONE point of view from the direction of one person's values.. We are all thinking we look at the world the right way. But we all can't agree.

I think taunting and name calling and stirring the pot, pretty much shuts down any discussion and debate. And there are some that always do just that, and we know who they are. Also we all get mad and retaliate with the most stinging criticism we can come up with sometimes.

My husband says the anonymous people can say anything. AND he is right. There are a lot of cowards hiding behind their computers. But there are also a lot of genuine, thoughtful, wise people who are anonymous too. We know who they are.

And we can be either, most of us, on any given day. We cannot get to five decades of life or better without feeling passionate about what we believe in. We CAN'T.
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  #41  
Old 12-13-2014, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
I think that most have a certain view of the world that they don't want interrupted. All of us think we are right.

I dislike people who down any group of people without thinking about it a LOT. Not all rich or poor people are corrupt. Not all black or white people are good. Not all religious or non religious people are holders of the truth. Not all bright people are smart. Not all non Mensa people are uneducated and incorrect. Not all people who have always voted one way are right nor are all people who have voted both ways.

Sometimes we have to learn to say things without malice even if we are mad...and talking about our values and having them challenged does make us mad. To call someone uncaring, without compassion, is hurtful, and only ONE point of view from the direction of one person's values.. We are all thinking we look at the world the right way. But we all can't agree.

I think taunting and name calling and stirring the pot, pretty much shuts down any discussion and debate. And there are some that always do just that, and we know who they are. Also we all get mad and retaliate with the most stinging criticism we can come up with sometimes.

My husband says the anonymous people can say anything. AND he is right. There are a lot of cowards hiding behind their computers. But there are also a lot of genuine, thoughtful, wise people who are anonymous too. We know who they are.

And we can be either, most of us, on any given day. We cannot get to five decades of life or better without feeling passionate about what we believe in. We CAN'T.
Nothing to disagree with there, and much of what you say seems to validate my initial point, that responding on controversial or political threads often leads to hurt feelings and resentment.
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  #42  
Old 12-13-2014, 02:56 PM
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IMO the problem is two party system, you have party line sheep that can't think for themselves or have been hoodwinked. This goes for both parties. I find if enough tell lie and repeat it enough now all of sudden it's true. I have voted both democrat and republican and have lived to regret both due to the fact they do one thing to get elected and another when in office. IMO it boils down to who can lie the most and get blind following. Once you blind you can't see!
  #43  
Old 12-13-2014, 03:05 PM
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I've actually had a positive reaction to the so-called "political" threads that have appeared lately. In fact I've felt that, for the most part, they have been respectful toward individual posters...while having intelligent discussions on current topics. And I've assumed that is why Admin have recently given us some leeway in discussing these topics.

In the past, I've wondered why discussions on the ACA were quickly shut down, while discussions on Social Security, Medicare and taxes were allowed to be discussed. They are all government programs and they all have the potential to bleed into political discussions.

It seems to me that topics such as pools, IRS bond issues, home construction, roundabouts and the never ending debate about dogs, etc. frequently become contentious and divide posters according to their personal opinions.

That is what happens when people with differing opinions engage in lively debate about issues that are important to them.

Personally, I think that Admin should treat us as the seasoned adults that we are, and allow us to discuss the issues we wish to discuss. And at the same time, we should all act like the seasoned adults that we are, and discuss issues without dissolving into less than adult behavior.
I wholeheartedly agree with you and totally disagree with the ban on political discussions or references.

Few issues of any significance can be discussed without some "politics" working its way into the discussion. Unless TOV is content to be relegated to a meaningless bit of fluff-- discussing only issues such as parades, favorite beaches, and dog poop on lawns, I would say bring back the political forum and let political references creep into other areas, where relevant. When was the last time anybody came up to you and said, "Hey, you won't believe what I saw on Talk of the Villages"?

If one wonders why such a tiny percentage of Villagers log in to TOV and why a handful of members seem to be responsible for the majority of the posts, I think the answer is because TOV is generally boring and very seldom discusses anything of real significance. My suggestion to the administrator: Don't be so sensitive about somebody's possibly getting upset because somebody else disagrees with him or her. Liven up TOV. Allow discussions of politics and other controversial topics and let the chips fall where they may. Just keep the discussion civil by not allowing personal attacks on other members.

Last edited by Advogado; 12-13-2014 at 04:04 PM.
  #44  
Old 12-13-2014, 03:09 PM
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I wholeheartedly agree with you and totally disagree with the ban on political discussions or references.

Few issues of any significance can be discussed without some "politics" working its way into the discussion. Unless TOV is content to be relegated to a meaningless bit of fluff-- discussing only issues such as parades, favorite beaches, and dog poop on lawns, I would say bring back the political forum and let political references creep into other areas, where relevant. When was the last time anybody came up to you and said, "Hey, you won't believe what I saw on Talk of the Villages"?

If one wonders why such a tiny percentage of Villagers log in to TOV and why a handful of members seem to be responsible for the majority of the posts, I think the answer is because TOV is generally boring and very seldom discusses anything of real significance. My suggestion to the administrator: Don't be so sensitive about somebody's possibly getting upset because somebody else disagrees with him or her. Liven up TOV. Allow discussions of politics and other controversial topics and let the chips fall wear they may. Just keep the discussion civil by not allowing personal attacks on other members.

Excellent post. Well stated.
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  #45  
Old 12-13-2014, 03:47 PM
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Just to clarify, I did not say controversial Or political threads should be banned and I also stated I would like to see the opt-in poli board resurrected. I simply stated that for my own well-being I am going to try and avoid them for the most part, unless the poli board comes back. BTW there are countless other forums that invite political discussion, including some that are free-for-alls - I am a member of one such board and used to participate in the political forum there, but left it a few years ago and only occasionally see what they are saying, and usually am amused and disgusted at the same time when I do.
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