[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Lindsyburnsy

Faith is not fact either so it should not be taught either.

That IS a good and thoughtful point.

[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by Ptmckiou

Okay, I’ll take a stab at this. Hang on to your britches…

Who created the watchmaker?

The laws of physics state, energy can’t be created or destroyed, but only ch age molecular form. So, if God is “intelligent energy” then God has always been, and will always be. That it further. Get out of 3D where energy creates all matter (everything being an aspect of “God”). Outside of 3D you lose the aspect of “time”. Time doesn’t exist, because to “measure” time you must have a “here” and a “there” for measurement. When you are outside of 3D there is only one eternal moment …the “now”. View time on a vertical staff, with an infinite amount of levels to it. In reality, you move through time, time does not move. Everything is happening within that one eternal moment, always changing, always evolving. Thereby, through the laws of physics you can explain the “watchmaker “ having always been, and will always be because time is an illusion. God (Source ) is the universal consciousness (eternal intelligent energy) of which everything comes from, because everything in 3D is made of matter, and matter is made from energy….aka Source of All…or also known as God.

pretty much the explanation I expected

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

They are very similar and becoming more so!

Now THAT is a great point.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

As far as mechanical devices go - chimpanzees are known to use tools.........so, are they evolving or using intelligent design. Are they just a few evolutionary rungs behind humans?

I thought the point was that life is the PRODUCT of intelligent design, not that life necessarily uses it.

But, in any case, I sometimes wonder what chimpanzees think of us. Human arrogance is a wonderful thing: it assumes that animal life must in some way be "behind" us in development. It is that whole "Amazon tribe" thinking: their particular tribe is the apex of human development and everything else--man or critter--is inferior to us; that we inhabit the exalted top rung. It seems as if the less we know, the more we think we know.

It is certainly that way when we try to define our "species" in relation to others. My own thought is that the more we allow ourselves to see, the more similarities we will recognize. A couple of examples from my own experience: some years back, my wife and I were camped in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness of northern Minnesota. We were camped on a narrows may be 80 to 100 yards wide, with the lake widening both before and after the narrows. One morning just after dawn we heard a ruckus in the woods across the narrows. A deer suddenly appeared at the source of the noise, looked around, saw my wife and I, jumped in the water and swam right towards us. Getting out of the water it went to the center of our camp and just stood there, almost within arms reach. Just after the deer got there we heard another noise in the same spot where the deer had appeared. A huge timberwolf ran out obviously on the trail of the deer, looked around, and saw us and the deer. Not wanting to deal with Mr. Wolf on our side of the lake, I grabbed the canoe paddle and started beating on the canoe with a paddle while jumping up and down and yelling loudly. The wolf just looked at me for a few seconds before turning around and walking back into the woods. His body language said it all. There was no fear in him, we just weren't worth bothering about.

As soon as the wolf disappeared, the deer melted into the woods as well.

Another example: I once had a cat that had the habit of raiding the garbage. I bought one of those childproof door latches and installed it on the door under the sink where the garbage was stored. I installed it, while the cat laid on the floor and watched me. I didn't think much of it at the time. The next morning I got up to garbage strewn all over the kitchen. Assuming I had left the door open I put the garbage back and made sure to close the door. I got up early the next morning--and caught the cat in the act: he was lying on his back with his paws stretched up under the door trying to trip the latch, which he succeeded in doing. He quickly pulled his paw out when he saw I was watching him.

Both these examples, to me anyway, show animals having complicated and advanced thought processes, having the ability to evaluate risks, make subjective judgments, planning ahead. The deer in the first example made a conscious choice between the lesser of two evils. People hunt deer up there and deer fear men, but that deer sought protection from us, knowing that the wolf would probably not approach us. We were still dangerous, just not quite as dangerous as the wolf. In the second example, the cat knew how to trip the latch just by watching me install it, and also knew without any evidence that I'd not approve if he tried to open it. Thought processes in each example are far more "human" than many of would like to admit.

There are more similarities than differences in life. Humans and chimps may share 98% of their DNA, but I recall reading that humans and microbes share something like 60%. That is well over half. We're far more similar in appearance to chimpanzees than to, say, a paramecium, but the functioning of all life, at least as we know it, seems to be identical on the molecular and sub- molecular level. The design of all life is contained in the DNA of that life, and how DNA works seems to be identical no matter what life we are talking about. Sure, the product of that DNA can vary tremendously in appearance and functionality from species to species, order to order, genus to genus, even phylum to phylum; but human life is related to all life, one way or another. Chimps and humans may not be brothers, but for sure second cousins is not out of the question. The watchmaker had a good blueprint for all the watches that have inhabited this planet.

It is LIFE that is special. What makes humanity special, if indeed we are special at all, is not in our biology.

[Blueblaze]

Originally Posted by jimbomaybe

"The question isn't whether evolution is a fact. The question is how all of those coincidences could happen without a plan. Evolution doesn't disprove God, any more than understanding how an airplane works disproves flight. The astounding level of coincidence necessary for evolution to work is the best evidence that, not only does He exist, he's the ultimate engineer!"
Evolution is its own plan, what works survives a little bit better for any number of reasons, the ultimate pragmaticism, no prejudices, if there is a guiding force directing why doodle bug around for hundreds of thousands of years?

Why doodle around for thousands of years? You're still thinking of God as some grandpa in the sky. God IS the "creation". The creation is His thoughts. And just as you have evolved over your lifetime, God has EVOLVED over the billions of years of His eternal life. You could just as easily ask why YOU "doodled around" for six or seven decades.

The one thing you can't escape is that this universe is too complex to have just grown by accident. How does an accidental Big Bang happen, before causation or time itself even exists?

[Blueblaze]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

Assuming that God does exist and is the ultimate engineer and is perfection personified and has set up the perfect plan, then it is implied that He/She/It/They (father, son, holy ghost) are infallible. If the plan is infallible then there is zero error and all things are going exactly according to plan. Creatures live and die, galaxies collide, all according to the perfect plan. Then, you or I in a moment of desperation or distress cry out to God to grant our prayer. The unmitigated gall! To dare to ask God, the creator, to change His perfect plan for the universe because we are upset. Even if you get what you want, it is only because it was destined to happen anyway. And, you or I were destined/required as part of the plan to make the request.
Imagine God's perfect plan as a billiard shot that started with the big bang. We, like particles on the billiard balls are just along for the ride. We may imagine free will, but it is only illusion. Like actors on the great stage of life, we go through the motions without a choice of what we will do next. We can't recognize it as we are immersed in and lost in our rolls. God created the plan and our fates, along with the fate of the universe has already been dictated. Those who believe, have no choice but to believe. Likewise, those who don't believe, have no choice but to not believe.

You missed the only theory that covers all the facts. It's not a "perfect plan", it's an conscious universe. And you, being a spec of God's consciousness, have a spec of His free will. Yes, it was engineered, but not all at once, any more than the Wright Brother's invention was the Boeing 747.

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

Why doodle around for thousands of years? You're still thinking of God as some grandpa in the sky. God IS the "creation". The creation is His thoughts. And just as you have evolved over your lifetime, God has EVOLVED over the billions of years of His eternal life. You could just as easily ask why YOU "doodled around" for six or seven decades.

The one thing you can't escape is that this universe is too complex to have just grown by accident. How does an accidental Big Bang happen, before causation or time itself even exists?

Hmm? God has evolved? Evolution is a response to outside influence, like growth of hair to deal with colder environment or more melanin to protect from sunlight. For God to need to evolve seems to imply he/she/It/they are somehow lacking or imperfect.
As for the universe, how can you be so sure this isn't one of a multitude of various universes and proto-universes. Also, the universe's perceived complexity could just the current view or state of the "dust beginning to settle" some 15 billion years after the total random dispersion of the big bang. No one knows for certain. And if God is evolving, that would imply that even he had no idea what the big bang would become when he "lit the fuse", or has no idea where it will end up. Therefore, it wasn't planned?
All we can figure is that believers will view all evidence through through the eyes of a believer, and unbelievers will interpret the evidence from their own perspective.
Interesting philosophical discourse continues.

[Worldseries27]

Many theories, explanations, no proofs either way. Throughout the ages we usually go down the wrong roads before self correcting. Einstein got it wrong.
He's human.
So are we

[blueash]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

There is one animal species that scientists have no prior evolutionary links for. At least it was that way when I asked my Anthropology Professor about it 40 yeas ago (so things may have changed. The animal "dolphin" suddenly appeared some? number or thousand years ago. They suddenly appeared in the anthropological records for some unknown reason. I have never since seen a discussion or explanation about that. But, then again, I was never curious enough to look into the subject further.

Anthropology has absolutely nothing to say about dolphin evolution. It is the study of human society, what make us human. Dolphins did not suddenly appear except that obviously there was a time before dolphins [when a now extinct precursor species lived] and a time after their speciation. The first "dolphins" appear in the fossil record over ten million years ago.

Google provides a myriad of available resources to learn about how land based mammals with hands and feet with five digits returned to the ocean as warm blooded sea inhabitants. The skeletal architecture of dolphins still has the same general bones as we do in our arms and hands... common ancestors, proof of evolution from an earlier progenitor.

[Blueblaze]

Originally Posted by fdpaq0580

Hmm? God has evolved? Evolution is a response to outside influence, like growth of hair to deal with colder environment or more melanin to protect from sunlight. For God to need to evolve seems to imply he/she/It/they are somehow lacking or imperfect.
As for the universe, how can you be so sure this isn't one of a multitude of various universes and proto-universes. Also, the universe's perceived complexity could just the current view or state of the "dust beginning to settle" some 15 billion years after the total random dispersion of the big bang. No one knows for certain. And if God is evolving, that would imply that even he had no idea what the big bang would become when he "lit the fuse", or has no idea where it will end up. Therefore, it wasn't planned?
All we can figure is that believers will view all evidence through through the eyes of a believer, and unbelievers will interpret the evidence from their own perspective.
Interesting philosophical discourse continues.

In order for a particle to exist, it must be observed. Basic Quantum Mechanics. Your "multiple universes" are merely mathematical possibilities where there was no observer to "collapse the function".

As for the evolution of God, just read your Bible. You'll discover, we've had a "New Covenant" for 2022 years, now. And yet, God was perfect 3,000 years ago, when he used to demand animal sacrifices, just as He's still perfect after he sacrificed himself so we could stop all that messy killing. God is the DEFINITION of perfect. So regardless of what state He might have been in, 4 billion years before he dreamed you up, He was perfect.

[jimbomaybe]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

Why doodle around for thousands of years? You're still thinking of God as some grandpa in the sky. God IS the "creation". The creation is His thoughts. And just as you have evolved over your lifetime, God has EVOLVED over the billions of years of His eternal life. You could just as easily ask why YOU "doodled around" for six or seven decades.

The one thing you can't escape is that this universe is too complex to have just grown by accident. How does an accidental Big Bang happen, before causation or time itself even exists?

If you subscribe to an omnipotent god why would there be a need for a change or modification of "plan" , I being mortal make mistakes and hopefully learn from my missteps a supreme being would not have that handicap

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

In order for a particle to exist, it must be observed. Basic Quantum Mechanics. Your "multiple universes" are merely mathematical possibilities where there was no observer to "collapse the function".

As for the evolution of God, just read your Bible. You'll discover, we've had a "New Covenant" for 2022 years, now. And yet, God was perfect 3,000 years ago, when he used to demand animal sacrifices, just as He's still perfect after he sacrificed himself so we could stop all that messy killing. God is the DEFINITION of perfect. So regardless of what state He might have been in, 4 billion years before he dreamed you up, He was perfect.

First paragraph: I am familiar with the principle. It seems to me same concept as "if a tree falls in the forrest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound". Greater minds than mine will have to do the math. As to the multi-verses, wouldn't God be an observer? Since God is everywhere the only way he wouldn't observe it would mean he doesn't exist.
Second paragraph: Evolution is an adaptation/mutation passed on to the next generation. If one changes their diet, exercise they may improve their health and fitness, but that is not evolution, it is just change of a single entity. Evolution, over time will allow one species to become a different species.
"Read you Bible". I have. A book with many tales, many of which are retelling of earlier tales from other cultures. There are many contradictions, and lots of missing parts inaccuracies and ambiguities. What about other religious texts as evidence? Do you totally dismiss them? And sacrificing himself to stop the messy killing of animals? How about all the messy killing of one another?

[skarra]

Science is based upon theories supported by observations some of which eventually become facts. Eg movement of the planets around the Sun - we have proof of that.

Religion is based upon faith and has no facts or proofs.

Science is flexible and willing to adjust over time as new observations are made - this is its strength. Religion is rigid and dislikes it when science points out it’s errors. Eg earth being the center of the universe, or evolution. Part of that rigidity comes about because of an unwillingness to admit that some of what MEN wrote in scriptures was just plain wrong.

I believe in spirituality and that there is some intersection with science and if you look hard and deep enough they do complement each other. I do not believe in religion as practiced by a group of men looking to control the behavior of the masses (and give themselves power and wealth in the process).

The root of all evil in this world is religion IMO. Without it we would be far better off as we had morals long before religion was devised and all religion has given us is centuries of wars.

[LuvNH]

I am amazed that any intelligent human truly believes in a supreme being who is waiting with open arms to welcome us into heaven.

If one looks at all the atrocities done in the name of religion it is truly horrific. You don't have to look back to burning people at the stake, just look around at the modern world within the last ten years and tell me there is a kind and loving God. We are unable to live and let live, but if that's what gets you through the night then so be it.

[Blueblaze]

Originally Posted by jimbomaybe

If you subscribe to an omnipotent god why would there be a need for a change or modification of "plan" , I being mortal make mistakes and hopefully learn from my missteps a supreme being would not have that handicap

"Omnipotent" doesn't exclude change. The word merely means 'all-powerful and everywhere". To me, that simply describes a conscious universe. You're the one who created a straw man god who never needs to change, and then pointed to change as your reason He can't exist.

Even Christians have to admit that God changes his mind. He changed his mind about destroying the world after Noah and the flood. He changed his mind again about demanding animal sacrifices after Jesus. He hasn't ordered the Jews to kill every last man, woman, child, and goat in a country and claim it for their own in thousands of years.

I think that God's universe demonstrates that God's thinking has evolved, "omnipotent" or not. The one thing I can't understand is how anyone can deny the existence of God. It's the only theory that covers all the facts.