[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by buggyone

Pretty interesting reading but I do not see much of it makes sense.

I really doubt if there would be the pitchforks happening.

As for the idea of a doubling of federal minimum wage getting people out of poverty, if wages go up for minimum wage, other wages will have to increase and when that happens - prices go up and basically everyone is back to their original place in the economy.

Actually they're worse off because the government takes a bigger cut. Prices have to go up at a higher rate than wages in order for manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers to keep up with the taxes.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Here is an excellent article authored by a billionaire, Nick Hanauer. Although I think his "pitchforks" analogy is overheated, his arguments make sense. I think he presents the problem and the solution in an apolitical manner. Read it and be your own judge.

The Pitchforks Are Coming

The best book I have ever read, and still enjoy rereading now and then, is Will & Ariel Durant's "The Lessons of History." Here are several quotes from their classic which pertain to this topic and should offer us all something to think about.

---

“Since practical ability differs from person to person, the majority of such abilities, in nearly all societies, is gathered in a minority of men. The concentration of wealth is a natural result of this concentration of ability, and regularly recurs in history. The rate of concentration varies (other factors being equal) with the economic freedom permitted by morals and the laws. Despotism may for a time retard the concentration; democracy, allowing the most liberty, accelerates it.”
…
“In progressive societies the concentration may reach a point where the strength of number in the many poor rivals the strength of ability in the few rich; then the unstable equilibrium generates a critical situation, which history has diversely met by legislation redistributing wealth or by revolution distributing poverty.”
…
“We conclude that the concentration of wealth is natural and inevitable, and is periodically alleviated by violent or peaceable partial redistribution”
…
“The mechanics of capitalism have proven to the most effective system:
Capitalist gathers the savings of the people, finances the mechanizations of industry, and distributes the goods according to demand (not government decree).”

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

I'm gonna guess you would recommend MSNBC as your preferred unbiased source?

Your guess would be wrong, but thanks for playing.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by Deseylou

A minimum wage is just that...
Not intended to support a family
Heck, we could raise it to $100 an hour
Then milk would cost $400 and so on...
I see nothing wrong with being rich
No matter how you got that way
Lucky to be born into the family
Working your fanny off...
There is always going to be someone better off than me, and someone not as blessed as me
Debbie

Exactly! Minimum wage is what is paid to part timers and entry level employees with no education or skills. If a person has an education or a speciality they are going to make more than minimum wage.

A person can start with many companies at minimum wage and work their way up to the point where they have a job that can support a family. I did that straight out of high school. I was with a company for five years. I started in the supply department and worked my way up to supervisor by the time I left to pursuer another profession.

[eweissenbach]

Let's see how the Seattle experiment plays out, then we will have hard data to back or disprove our theories.

[Rags123]

As I mentioned earlier, this gentleman who penned this is much to political and if you read the piece, you would agree.

I am not sure than any source will satisfy the OP as objective but I offer TED and Forbes as just two folks who feel strongly about this.

TED is a fantastic, non political and just incredible site for learning and for anyone, whatever you think of this, their website is worth a visit. You will be amazed by the learned folks who speak there and how much information they impart.

This is from their website...

"TED is a nonprofit devoted to spreading ideas, usually in the form of short, powerful talks (18 minutes or less). TED began in 1984 as a conference where Technology, Entertainment and Design converged, and today covers almost all topics — from science to business to global issues — in more than 100 languages. Meanwhile, independently run TEDx events help share ideas in communities around the world."

TED: Ideas worth spreading

I strongly suggest a visit there for anyone no matter what, BUT this is from the curator of TED...

"Chris Anderson, the curator of TED, wrote in a post on his website responding to the allegations that the organization is inundated with requests to post talks on its homepage and only features those that are "truly special." Anderson also claimed that once Hanauer found out the site would't be posting his talk, he hired a public relations firm to promote the talk to progressive organizations like MoveOn.org. Anderson also released a video of Hanauer's talk, providing a link to it in his post.

"The talk tapped into a really important and timely issue," Anderson wrote. "But it framed the issue in a way that was explicitly partisan. And it included a number of arguments that were unconvincing, even to those of us who supported his overall stance."

Now Forbes is another story.....yes, Forbes is know to be a bit to the right, but their position on this was even stronger than usual...

"Nick Hanauer has gone public with another stage of his plan for the US economy. Essentially, raise wages for everyone and she’ll be fine. The problem with this is that Hanauer is simply factually wrong in a major example that he uses to bolster his case and then remarkably uninformed about the economics of the situation. So much so that it’s entirely fair of me to call this latest iteration of his plan “near insane”, as I did

Nick Hanauer's Latest Near Insane Economic Plan - Forbes

The link given for Forbes will allow you to also read the REASON for the "near insane" and partisan comments.

There is so much more and folks should read about this man......very interesting but certainly EXTREMELY PARTISAN !

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

Exactly! Minimum wage is what is paid to part timers and entry level employees with no education or skills. If a person has an education or a speciality they are going to make more than minimum wage.

A person can start with many companies at minimum wage and work their way up to the point where they have a job that can support a family. I did that straight out of high school. I was with a company for five years. I started in the supply department and worked my way up to supervisor by the time I left to pursuer another profession.

So how do you feel about paying for food stamps through your tax dollars, and subsidizing health care for Wal-Mart employees while the company makes billions?

[perrjojo]

We are not in the 1% but have a life long friend who is. He is a retired CEO of a Fortune 500 company and you would most likely reconize his name. Here is what I know about him. He paid his own way thru college. He worked his way up thru the ranks of the company. He worked 18 hours a day. He was constantly traveling the USA and the world. He had a beautiful home, expensive car and traveled in the company private jet.. He was rarely there to enjoy his amazing home, rarely drove anything but a rental car. While on the private jet he missed his son's little league games and his daughters dance recitals. He missed their birthdays and graduations. He also had several unsuccessful marriages. While those big salaries sound unfair, they come at a big personal price. Most men and women in those positions earn every unequal paycheck they receive. We just all have to decide how hard we are willing to work and how much personal life we choose to sacrifice. Oh, and I agree...we all do not have the talent needed to achieve that level.

[perrjojo]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

So how do you feel about paying for food stamps through your tax dollars, and subsidizing health care for Wal-Mart employees while the company makes billions?

When I lived in Georgia 2/3 of children on Medicaid were children of Walmart employees. I do not shop Walmart...ever!

[kittygilchrist]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

So how do you feel about paying for food stamps through your tax dollars, and subsidizing health care for Wal-Mart employees while the company makes billions?

What is your point?

[Rags123]

If anyone made it through the entire article one of the main thrusts was using Henry Ford as some sort of central piece...Forbes on that...

"One major error is that he uses Henry Ford’s $5 a day wages as a central plank of his insistence that higher wages will increase the sales of those who pay those higher wages:

The model for us rich guys here should be Henry Ford, who realized that all his autoworkers in Michigan weren’t only cheap labor to be exploited; they were consumers, too. Ford figured that if he raised their wages, to a then-exorbitant $5 a day, they’d be able to afford his Model Ts.

The problem is that that isn’t why Ford raised those wages. Rather, he wanted to reduce the turnover of staff and thus to reduce his training and recruitment bill. He was cycling through 50,000 odd people a year in order to keep a permanent establishment of some 14,000. Doubling wages pretty much stopped that turnover and thus made him money in that manner."

Nick Hanauer's Latest Near Insane Economic Plan - Forbes

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by perrjojo

We are not in the 1% but have a life long friend who is. He is a retired CEO of a Fortune 500 company and you would most likely reconize his name. Here is what I know about him. He paid his own way thru college. He worked his way up thru the ranks of the company. He worked 18 hours a day. He was constantly traveling the USA and the world. He had a beautiful home, expensive car and traveled in the company private jet.. He was rarely there to enjoy his amazing home, rarely drove anything but a rental car. While on the private jet he missed his son's little league games and his daughters dance recitals. He missed their birthdays and graduations. He also had several unsuccessful marriages. While those big salaries sound unfair, they come at a big personal price. Most men and women in those positions earn every unequal paycheck they receive. We just all have to decide how hard we are willing to work and how much personal life we choose to sacrifice. Oh, and I agree...we all do not have the talent needed to achieve that level.

Well I would agree that some earn every cent they make. The Morse's, for example have made their money by great vision and innovation, while risking their fortune on their belief in what they were doing, and providing a great product. However, many CEOs have stacked their BOD with cronies who vote them ridiculous salaries, bonuses and stock option while they run the company into the ground. And let's talk about those financial sector gurus who walked away with obscene riches while contributing to the near collapse of the economy, resulting in millions of Americans losing their jobs, their homes, and often their marriages. I don't envy the guy you describe - the price he paid for all that money and all those toys is way too high for me, I saw my kids play ball, graduate HS and College , took vacations, enjoyed my weekends and still managed to have a successful and rewarding career.

[Pointer]

When medical insurance premiums began to rise many full time jobs became part time jobs so the burden was sifted to the now part time employee. Where minimum wage with benefits would be manageable then simply isn't now. One can work two & three jobs and still not have medical insurance.

I think that everyone should be able to work for a livable wage regardless of anything other then an honest days work. How many would avoid the lure of gangs and selling drugs and guns etc.

Many collage students come out with so much debt, because gone are the days when one could work their way through and pay the rent. Today the promised jobs after collage are not there either. I have two children paying off collage debt, one is an engineer and one has a masters in applied math, both of whom had a long search before they could find jobs in their fields and who even with "professional salaries, have to have roommates to pay for the rent.

I think it's easy to think and say that people don't want to work rather then face the complicated issues facing todays youth and young families. It's not the same world as when we were young.

While it sounds reasonable to say that everything will just go up I don't think that is a proven fact. A redistribution of wealth needs to happen. The money trickles up but doesn't trickle down.

Follow the money and see where the problem lies. It may not be where you'd like to think it is.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Well I would agree that some earn every cent they make. The Morse's, for example have made their money by great vision and innovation, while risking their fortune on their belief in what they were doing, and providing a great product. However, many CEOs have stacked their BOD with cronies who vote them ridiculous salaries, bonuses and stock option while they run the company into the ground. And let's talk about those financial sector gurus who walked away with obscene riches while contributing to the near collapse of the economy, resulting in millions of Americans losing their jobs, their homes, and often their marriages. I don't envy the guy you describe - the price he paid for all that money and all those toys is way too high for me, I saw my kids play ball, graduate HS and College , took vacations, enjoyed my weekends and still managed to have a successful and rewarding career.

It is interesting that you mention those who had responsibility for the "financial sector gurus who walked away with obscene riches while contributing to the near collapse of the economy, resulting in millions of Americans losing their jobs, their homes, and often their marriages. "

This from the New York Times in 2011 concerning those fellows you reference in discussing that none of them ever faced any prosecution

"But several years after the financial crisis, which was caused in large part by reckless lending and excessive risk taking by major financial institutions, no senior executives have been charged or imprisoned, and a collective government effort has not emerged. This stands in stark contrast to the failure of many savings and loan institutions in the late 1980s. In the wake of that debacle, special government task forces referred 1,100 cases to prosecutors, resulting in more than 800 bank officials going to jail. Among the best-known: Charles H. Keating Jr., of Lincoln Savings and Loan in Arizona, and David Paul, of Centrust Bank in Florida. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/14/bu...pagewanted=all


Not defending them in anyway, just noting for the record that NONE of them were prosecuted by the US.

[Rags123]

And this from the Washington Post on the same bad guys......this in 2013

"This is a complete list of Wall Street CEOs prosecuted for their role in the financial crisis

So, yeah. Zero Wall Street CEOs are in jail. But we did promise you a list:

1. No one.

2. LOL.

3. Wall Street's lawyers are amazing.

4. Etc. Etc.

It's not that federal government tried to prosecute a bunch of them but lost the cases. There were no serious efforts at criminal prosecutions at all."

This is a complete list of Wall Street CEOs prosecuted for their role in the financial crisis - The Washington Post

This is one of the reasons for this linked piece by the OP (certainly not the main one) being called partisan.