[PennBF]

Thanks Russ. I sort of stopped any further discussion on my part as some have called names and that really has no place in a debate.

[Annabelle]

[QUOTE=angiefox10;398847]for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

AngieFox,

Angie,
Great post!!!
And great to know there are so many animal lovers here on TOTV.

Annabelle

[Annabelle]

Originally Posted by PennBF

Thanks Russ. I sort of stopped any further discussion on my part as some have called names and that really has no place in a debate.

PennBF,
When one resorts to "name calling" then you know he has lost the debate.
Your posts have been nothing less than straight-forward, intelligent and very polite.

Annabelle

[Annabelle]

Russ Boston's reply to PennBF

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site[/quote]

Russ,
May I "smack you on the head" with a few facts regarding animal torture and mental illness? You may be interested in the following facts:

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children.

Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials: 
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING. 
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously.

FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

www.pet-abuse.com

[ladydoc]

Originally Posted by Annabelle

Russ Boston's reply to PennBF

What you state here is elitist BS! You keep saying these things as if they are/were in evidence and us normal folk could never understand unless we read some books that I guess you've read. You're making an assumption that mental illness is involved. To my knowledge that was never argued in this case. If I'm wrong then please educate me. You also ignore the cultural aspect of the case that a few people (Red, LivingLarge, Myself) have pointed out. You act as if all crimes must be avenged beyond what the courts pass out for judgement. I trust in our system regardless of the crime. Some people are sent to death row, some are given probation and most are in-between.

I guess now I'm done.

BTW: If someone sees me around TV in the next few weeks please smack me on the head (and don't be gentle!) for getting back to this site

Russ,
May I "smack you on the head" with a few facts regarding animal torture and mental illness? You may be interested in the following facts:

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children.

Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

If you break it down to its bare essentials: 
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING. 
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Now try it with, say, domestic abuse such as child abuse or spousal abuse:
"Child abuse is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."

Do you see the pattern here?

The line separating an animal abuser from someone capable of committing human abuse is much finer than most people care to consider. People abuse animals for the same reasons they abuse people. Some of them will stop with animals, but enough have been proven to continue on to commit violent crimes to people that it's worth paying attention to.

Virtually every serious violent offender has a history of animal abuse in their past, and since there's no way to know which animal abuser is going to continue on to commit violent human crimes, they should ALL be taken that seriously.

FBI Supervisory Special Agent Allen Brantley was quoted as saying "Animal cruelty... is not a harmless venting of emotion in a healthy individual; this is a warning sign..." It should be looked at as exactly that. Its a clear indicator of psychological issues that can and often DO lead to more violent human crimes.

www.pet-abuse.com[/QUOTE]

What she is saying is correct. Abusing animals, bedwetting and fascination with fire (when they occur together) are the big 3 for predicting bad things to come. Will every person displaying these behaviors become violent? Probably not. Will a greater number show violence then those who do not have these behaviors? Probably so.

[villagegolfer]

[quote=Annabelle;401197]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

for my feelings about Mr. Vick. If this is disrupting your game then don't read it. I would also like to add that if you can't be supportive about a thread you might want to consider being quiet!

What Michael Vick did may not bother you as much as it does me or others on this thread.... So ignore it so we can grieve for the dogs that were abused while Mr. Vick goes back to his old life. We don't believe that he is sorry for what he did... We believe that he is sorry for getting caught!

NO! I do not forgive him and I would wonder about myself if I did. I am a dog rescuer.... I am one of the people who works to try to place these abused dogs.

Many of you can be as ignorant as you want because you don't have your name or your pictures up here.... You just can't wait to jump on a thread and be as mean as you can be. I call that bullying... You don't even try to be funny.... You just try to be mean! You know who you are!

AngieFox,

Angie,
Great post!!!
And great to know there are so many animal lovers here on TOTV.

Annabelle

Who are these people you are accusing? I haven't seen them. I have rescued two dogs and have spent many days trying to gain their confidence and love. Just because some people say things that you do not agree to, is no reason to call them ignorant.

[Oren L Miller]

[quote=villagegolfer;401228]

Originally Posted by Annabelle

Who are these people you are accusing? I haven't seen them. I have rescued two dogs and have spent many days trying to gain their confidence and love. Just because some people say things that you do not agree to, is no reason to call them ignorant.

The definition of ingnorant is not knowing or not understanding. In my humble opinion the people who think he was punished enough didn't read the book "The Lost Dogs". I don't think they understand how bad the abuse really was. I don't think they understand the breadth or depth of the abuse. I think they just thought he was guilty of perpetrating dog fighting. I don't think they understand his role in the injustices that were perpetrated on the dogs. I would really like to have a conversation with you about this after you have read the book. It might give you a more informed basis to make your posts about.

[redwitch]

I don't think any of us said he was punished enough. We said he was punished according to the law and today's justice. I don't think the punishment fit the crime but, then, I've never thought that the sentences (usually just a hand slap and a fine) for animal abuse were enough. I worked on two campaigns in California to raise the penalties for animal abuse. One passed, one did not. Even so, it's still not enough.

I do stand behind the fact that Vicks has spoken against animal abuse and his actions since being released from prison. More importantly, he has done so long after the court-mandated community service was up and he continues to talk at schools to this day. It may be a publicity and public relations stunt to make him look good, but the talks do make a difference. They do get kids to see where dog fighting is evil. The SPCA and other animal rights groups have repeatedly said that the best spokesmen against animal abuse are former perpetrators. They do speak from knowledge and, strangely, from the heart when they speak of their past actions.

[Oren L Miller]

Originally Posted by redwitch

I don't think any of us said he was punished enough. We said he was punished according to the law and today's justice. I don't think the punishment fit the crime but, then, I've never thought that the sentences (usually just a hand slap and a fine) for animal abuse were enough. I worked on two campaigns in California to raise the penalties for animal abuse. One passed, one did not. Even so, it's still not enough.

I do stand behind the fact that Vicks has spoken against animal abuse and his actions since being released from prison. More importantly, he has done so long after the court-mandated community service was up and he continues to talk at schools to this day. It may be a publicity and public relations stunt to make him look good, but the talks do make a difference. They do get kids to see where dog fighting is evil. The SPCA and other animal rights groups have repeatedly said that the best spokesmen against animal abuse are former perpetrators. They do speak from knowledge and, strangely, from the heart when they speak of their past actions.

I have no faith in our legal system. We have laws for the poor and the middle income and the rich people. I was hoping animal lovers everywhere would band together and not watch or go to games he was playing in to provide a more fitting punishment.

[tkret]

Wow! I don't think there was this much "discussion" over the Casey Anthony decision.

[Doodlegirl]

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by Doodlegirl

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, .......
Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

Thank you for your post. I want to bawl my eyes out just reading it, much less seeing the scars in person.

As for this whole Vick matter, isn't the heart of it all the fact that our society idolizes Hollywood stars, politicians, and college/pro athletes, purposely disregarding their having no morals or common decency???

idol·ize verb \ˈī-də-ˌlīz\

Definition of IDOLIZE

transitive verb

: to worship as a god; broadly : to love or admire to excess

[Doodlegirl]

sometimes I worry that they are lost now.

[duffysmom]

Originally Posted by Doodlegirl

background, and work in rescuing. Several pages back I believe I commented
about Michael Vick and opined that he is a sad excuse for being a sports
model. Imagine if you would, that in the football stands are dogs who have been taught to assist the blind, hearing impaired, physically handicapped - others who alert their owners to oncoming seizures. The dog as a companion animal, or worker (sheparding, guarding, finding the dead and injured in war).

Michael Vick chose the work he wanted his dogs to do, and do it until their
abusive deaths by betting on flesh. I would be remiss if I did not stop in again to say, the punishment did not fit the crime, that the NFL didn't give a damn, and those of us who have carried these lifeless bodies from crime scenes for 30 years or more...or, tried to rehabilitate them after cruelty, ARE in a position to be both knowledgable and passionate about this case.

If you would like to meet one, come over and visit. I'll show you a dog who was Hearworm Positive, in fourth stage congestive heart failure, had 3rd degree burns between every toe pad of all four feet, and would drop to the
ground at the sight of a tall man. I have had Gus for 7 years now, he was not a dog who was destined to be rescued and rehomed except by me. In the two months I've lived in my cyv, my neighbors have come to meet me...and Gus. They are shocked to see a big dog tremble. Shake at the sight of a human being other than me. Gus cannot go to the Squares on a leash, he falls to the ground shaking. He cannot be walked outside in fact, he knows only his yard. He has, he does, he will ever be what was done to him.
But he is loved greatly now and he loves back with me.

Upon examination by the Vet at rescue, Gus was 1 year old, Gus had to be completely shaved because he was so matted and the Vet felt there would
be other signs of abuse. That is where the marks of the belt and the buckle were seen. Over sixty scars along his back and chest, many not healed.
As the title of the book about the juvenile Justice system indicates, Gus is "Weeping In the Playtime of Others". The debate here has been enlightened by Annabelle's information. I am a Psychologist, among other things, and I will say Michael Vick would still be doing what he was doing except for one thing...he got caught. Those who want to cheer him on and
cheer him loudly should do so, for the rest of us there is still work to do in
this Country and it is evident from the discussion. Gus was manually debarked as a young dog, so he won't be on the cheering side if you know what I mean.

I wept when I read about Gus and at the same time I feel anger for the perpetrators. Sometimes I feel that we are lost as a soceity and then I read about people like you and Annabelle and feel better knowing that there are people who put their beliefs into action. God bless you and Gus.

[Oren L Miller]

Originally Posted by Doodlegirl

sometimes I worry that they are lost now.

Sitting here playing with our three dogs is the most sane part of my day. They understand we all need unconditional love. I'm a big guy but your post made me tear up. I would love to meet your baby some day if I wouldn't scare him. I want him to know there are people out there that do care and a lot of people that have not lost their moral compass. I'm sorry he met on that never did have one and never will. Rehabilitated my ass.