[donb9006]

Originally Posted by PennBF

During WWII I was about 11 years old and our father was a Chaplin. I can remember being in Arlington Cemetery and watching as he conducted combined ceremonies as he buried 10-12 servicemen at the same time and their family's sitting by the graves, I remember going on visits to the Military Hospitals and seeing the servicemen with legs missing, some with bones covered in "mesh" awaiting amputation, or living at an R&R location for returning wounded servicemen and playing ping pong with them as they struggled to play. This is what awaits the ones who are being considered to go to war based on a tremendous amount of poor intelligence, no absolute identified mission. This is what they are being asked to give their life up for. This is not playing soldier in the back yard as a kid, this is getting serious wounds and getting actually killed. I sure as heck would not want my son or daughter giving their life up for the stupid statement regarding a "Red Line"
Think it over before saying you would be willing to see that 18 or 19 year old kid being shot and killed for what they are talking about. It is sad so many don't think of the kid falling in the field after being shot or the pilot being taken prisoner and being tortured. It is not abstract it is real.

I can't remember the last "just" war, where there was an actual threat. They've all been proven to be based on lies.

This Syria thing is part of a bigger plan. Middle eastern countries are being destabilized at an alarming rate...something is afoot...

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by PennBF

During WWII I was about 11 years old and our father was a Chaplin. I can remember being in Arlington Cemetery and watching as he conducted combined ceremonies as he buried 10-12 servicemen at the same time and their family's sitting by the graves, I remember going on visits to the Military Hospitals and seeing the servicemen with legs missing, some with bones covered in "mesh" awaiting amputation, or living at an R&R location for returning wounded servicemen and playing ping pong with them as they struggled to play. This is what awaits the ones who are being considered to go to war based on a tremendous amount of poor intelligence, no absolute identified mission. This is what they are being asked to give their life up for. This is not playing soldier in the back yard as a kid, this is getting serious wounds and getting actually killed. I sure as heck would not want my son or daughter giving their life up for the stupid statement regarding a "Red Line"
Think it over before saying you would be willing to see that 18 or 19 year old kid being shot and killed for what they are talking about. It is sad so many don't think of the kid falling in the field after being shot or the pilot being taken prisoner and being tortured. It is not abstract it is real.

I am hoping based on these hearings that we make a strike or two to save the Presidents credibility and then out. We have totally ignored this situation (I was told this was not an important issue in the unnamed forum) so let's save face and try to figure out a mature informed policy.

[capecodbob]

Originally Posted by billethkid

I have not heard anything from Obama that indicates there is any more depth to "his" plan than any he has proposed in the past with no action, no results.
I am unsold by the many times the actions of this administration do not line up with the words.

There is absolutely no assurance the end result of the so called measured, limited, response will not erupt into a much worse situation that will drag us into something unplanned and definitely unprepared.

There is nothing but political following being promoted by the daily circus of Kerry and Hagel and a General who has no choice but to nod when beckoned!!
They are glossing over the issue of just who it is constitutes the rebel forces.

The latest measures or 60 days plus 30 more if needed, no boots on the ground, etc is so very amateurish. Since when is there any reality in the weeks longs announcement of yup we are gonna do it....we'll let you know when we are coming. Then calling out 60 or 70 missles and we are done. Done with what? Just exactly what constitutes the mission and it's objectives? I appreciate the fact there is info we will never see as referred to by Kerry about the "closed sessions".

Can you imagine what Assaad and his regime are doing in preparation for the announced attack? What would you be doing if you knew you were going to be attacked and what you were going to be attacked with.

What ever happened to the critical element of surprise in a military operation?

We have turned war both the offense and defensive aspects into a politically driven, need for consensus decision making scenario. Two aspects that will only lead to failure.......politically driven and need for consensus. There is room for neither in a real war.

So I do not trust what is being presented. I happen to be a commitment/results person and expect one to do what they say they will do, when they said it would be done and who is responsible. I have no time or respect for people who use words instead of deeds. This administration has earned my distrust.

Based on the past experience with the current administration and the lack of openness about what it is they expect to do and the results obtained.....I remain adamantly opposed to any response in Syria. I do not want to see this country invest it's assets in a politically motivated "want". Only to listen, once again, to those in charge, spew whose fault it was if things do not go well.

NO THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

Good Post!!!

[wendyquat]

Originally Posted by billethkid

I have not heard anything from Obama that indicates there is any more depth to "his" plan than any he has proposed in the past with no action, no results.
I am unsold by the many times the actions of this administration do not line up with the words.

There is absolutely no assurance the end result of the so called measured, limited, response will not erupt into a much worse situation that will drag us into something unplanned and definitely unprepared.

There is nothing but political following being promoted by the daily circus of Kerry and Hagel and a General who has no choice but to nod when beckoned!!
They are glossing over the issue of just who it is constitutes the rebel forces.

The latest measures or 60 days plus 30 more if needed, no boots on the ground, etc is so very amateurish. Since when is there any reality in the weeks longs announcement of yup we are gonna do it....we'll let you know when we are coming. Then calling out 60 or 70 missles and we are done. Done with what? Just exactly what constitutes the mission and it's objectives? I appreciate the fact there is info we will never see as referred to by Kerry about the "closed sessions".

Can you imagine what Assaad and his regime are doing in preparation for the announced attack? What would you be doing if you knew you were going to be attacked and what you were going to be attacked with.

What ever happened to the critical element of surprise in a military operation?

We have turned war both the offense and defensive aspects into a politically driven, need for consensus decision making scenario. Two aspects that will only lead to failure.......politically driven and need for consensus. There is room for neither in a real war.

So I do not trust what is being presented. I happen to be a commitment/results person and expect one to do what they say they will do, when they said it would be done and who is responsible. I have no time or respect for people who use words instead of deeds. This administration has earned my distrust.

Based on the past experience with the current administration and the lack of openness about what it is they expect to do and the results obtained.....I remain adamantly opposed to any response in Syria. I do not want to see this country invest it's assets in a politically motivated "want". Only to listen, once again, to those in charge, spew whose fault it was if things do not go well.

NO THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btk

My sentiments exactly! Thank you for spelling it out!

[PennBF]

It is sad that some want to do a strike in order to "save the President's creditability". Based on this it Is OK to have planes shot down, pilots killed
or captured and tortured in order to save the Presidents creditability. How sad anyone would support a loss of life of a young American in order to save the President's reputation. The Chief of The Army admitted in the hearings they don't even have a mission plan. Translated it means they don't have a plan so we would allow our young people to be killed based on a wild guess? How sick of society have we become?

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by PennBF

It is sad that some want to do a strike in order to "save the President's creditability". Based on this it Is OK to have planes shot down, pilots killed
or captured and tortured in order to save the Presidents creditability. How sad anyone would support a loss of life of a young American in order to save the President's reputation. The Chief of The Army admitted in the hearings they don't even have a mission plan. Translated it means they don't have a plan so we would allow our young people to be killed based on a wild guess? How sick of society have we become?

I am one who has said this, HOWEVER, having watched the hearings I see, at least from what the resolution says and how the hearings have gone, no fear of what you are saying. Perhaps you know more than I but I understand the missles would be from our warships off shore.

Lest you think I care little about our armed forces, I will not bore you with comments but suggest if you care, read my posts from the past and you may be shocked.

I have always been a foe of this President, yet I truly in my heart think if we do not cover his a** and reckless naive attitude, the consequences will be more severe. I believe that what happens in the mideast DOES MATTER to this country. I believe that the USA would become even more of a laughing stock than at present, and that all we are doing is delaying the inevitable.

I do not care if there is a regime change..absolutely do not care outside my sympathy for the citizens, but I felt that way in so many countries over the years that we ignore.

To embolden those in the region in anyway, in my opinion is a mistake.

Listen, any action is way past due, and you are correct.....the perils are greater now than they would have been when folks were screaming and being ignored about this subject, and the same thing is going to come up again and again.

It is past due..there are risks, but in my opinion, the fellow who brought up Benghaze was spot on....we had americans killed there and did nothing....and I think that action now will eventually save american lives.

I know the administration got us here and I am loathe to save his reputation and credibility, but lets face it...he is the person who represents our country. I will be just as upset when the congress has to save his "bacon" with health care. IN both cases, had he put aside his political agendas, and at least consulted, we would be better off in both ways.

I want nobody to die....but I think more will die if we do not send a message now....again mucho late, but at least a message.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Tracy1581

We are in serious trouble with this President. His statement denying he made a statement about the Red line is just another complete lie. Can you imagine ANY president making a statement "It's not my creditability on the line, it's America's or Congress. That is like saying it' not my problem. it's America's problem, it's the republicans problem. Blame everything on everyone else. He's the Commander in Chief and has no clue how to handle this crisis in the Middle East.
I think Obama would love to read in the NY Times "For the First time in history, Congress led by republicans denies the President. And after that it will be racist republicans denied President. Obama is counting on a no vote in the house so he can get this headline. Nothing is about what the American people want. It's all about HIM.

Obama puts in charge of trying to sell us the use of force one of the biggest anti-war protestors ever.

The only enemy Obama is out to destroy is US !! And we are watching the country unfold right in front of our eyes. My God, what chance do our children have ? Not even the President takes responsibility for this own actions. How sad

Right after each of the last two elections, in the unnamed forum, I was told by posters who knew how I opposed this President, that I need to suck it up and understand who is in charge. That I need to support him because HE is the President. That was said to rile me up, and as sad as the meaning of that and intent was, it is true.

It is difficult to ignore what has happened over the years and especially in the lazy, uninvolved foreign policy toward anything that does not serve a political purpose.

Having said that, I do not think there is anything to gain by opposing this resolution as presented. I will support him on this limited action, and hope he learns that saying things does not make them true. There has to be facts to back them up no matter how smart you may think you are.

No matter who, he will leave (after congress fixes also health care), and we will still be the USA. I do not want my country to be viewed as the rest of the world is viewing us now and not backing the President, whomever that is, will simply make us open for more ridicule and in the long run, to me, more danger.

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by Bucco

Right after each of the last two elections, in the unnamed forum, I was told by posters who knew how I opposed this President, that I need to suck it up and understand who is in charge. That I need to support him because HE is the President. That was said to rile me up, and as sad as the meaning of that and intent was, it is true.

It is difficult to ignore what has happened over the years and especially in the lazy, uninvolved foreign policy toward anything that does not serve a political purpose.

Having said that, I do not think there is anything to gain by opposing this resolution as presented. I will support him on this limited action, and hope he learns that saying things does not make them true. There has to be facts to back them up no matter how smart you may think you are.

No matter who, he will leave (after congress fixes also health care), and we will still be the USA. I do not want my country to be viewed as the rest of the world is viewing us now and not backing the President, whomever that is, will simply make us open for more ridicule and in the long run, to me, more danger.

AFTER DOING SOME READING, PERHAPS I AM CHANGING MY MIND.

"A Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman warned any military intervention in Syria would create a nuclear disaster.

“If a warhead, by design or by chance, were to hit the Miniature Neutron Source Reactor (MSNR) near Damascus, the consequences could be catastrophic,” Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Aleksandr Lukashevich stated, according to Russia Today.

Lukashevich said if a military strike were launched without seeking approval from the United Nations Security Council that new suffering for other countries of the Middle East and North Africa would occur. He added that the region could be at risk of “contamination by highly enriched uranium and it would no longer be possible to account for nuclear material, its safety and control.”

Russia Warns Of Nuclear Disaster If Syria Is Hit « CBS DC

"The Syrian rebels posed casually, standing over their prisoners with firearms pointed down at the shirtless and terrified men.
The prisoners, seven in all, were captured Syrian soldiers. Five were trussed, their backs marked with red welts. They kept their faces pressed to the dirt as the rebels’ commander recited a bitter revolutionary verse.

“For fifty years, they are companions to corruption,” he said. “We swear to the Lord of the Throne, that this is our oath: We will take revenge.”

The moment the poem ended, the commander, known as “the Uncle,” fired a bullet into the back of the first prisoner’s head. His gunmen followed suit, promptly killing all the men at their feet. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/wo...t.html?hp&_r=0

"Russia says it has compiled a 100-page report detailing what it says is evidence that Syrian rebels, not forces loyal to President Bashar Assad, were behind a deadly sarin gas attack in an Aleppo suburb earlier this year.

In a statement posted on the Russian Foreign Ministry’s website late Wednesday. Russia said the report had been delivered to the United Nations in July and includes detailed scientific analysis of samples that Russian technicians collected at the site of the alleged attack, Khan al Asal."

Read more here: Russia says it's compiled 100-page report blaming Syrian rebels for a chemical weapons attack | McClatchy

Mr President, why have you allowed so much time to go by and ignored what is happening and why are you now trying to lay this on the back of congress when you did not even want to come to them. Why are you talking as you have today about the red line not being yours. Why will you not talk about Benghazi.

What a mess we are in now.....I am changing....maybe let him be embarassed by this and the oncoming train wreck with health care.

I think now the end game is to blame congress for whatever happens and to try and insure he is credited if anything goes well. I never believed quite that badly, but getting there now

[rp001]

Sadly I believe this subject matter has become nothing more than an open opportunity for some folks to bash the president. It's time for support and to at least attempt to pose a united front. The debate is over. Time to pray.

[billethkid]

I cannot support that which I have yet to be convinced about. There are far too many unknowns and far too many holes in what is being presented.

I am the first to back what our country stands for and NEEDS to do, however I will not back that which I do not believe is for the good of the country. And I also do not believe the action being proposed will accomplish what has been described as a "punishment" for Assaad. And the result will be thousands more innocents already suffaerable lives will be drastically affected and made even worse.

I cannot back supporting a military step that is at best an ill defined hope. And if the first step is ill defined what hope could there be for the subsequent steps that will be generated as a result of the so called punishment.

It was stated today by one of the high ranking generals that it would take 75,000 American troops on the ground to manage and maintain the poison gas locations to have any hope of controlling what we started.

In the event the ill defined step one is approved by the congress, that approval allows Obama to go beyond step one if need be.....with no further approval required.

And I would say on the contrary we are seeing and hearing a united front from the American people....they, like me are NOT IN SUPPORT of going into Syria based on what we have seen and heard to date.

Think about lighting a fuse on a bomb that one does not know how long the fuse is....or how big the bomb is.....or if it could set off other explosions i.e gas and oil storeage etc.....or whether the bomb fallout will be harmful to what ever.....and so on......that is the Syria scenario being played to date.

As some have stated pray the request gets defeated. The fallout from that will affect far fewer lives and ways of life.

btk

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by rp001

Sadly I believe this subject matter has become nothing more than an open opportunity for some folks to bash the president. It's time for support and to at least attempt to pose a united front. The debate is over. Time to pray.

I respectfully disagree with you. Obviously your political hackles are geared up, and I suggest to you, the moderators and all THAT is EXACTLY WHY we are at this stage.

This is a discussion of major proportions to this country and the world. It is very difficult to discuss our countries foreign policy, which is the base for all of this, without discussing the President who is its author.

To not allow discussion of such a major event such as is being played out through the world because somebody has their feelings hurt due to criticism of the author, would be wrong in my opinion.

I, if you actually read any posts have tried very hard to propose a united front, but I am also a realist and perhaps that is not good right now.

If you run for the highest office, and call any criticism of the policy for which YOU AND YOU ALONE are responsible for to be political attacks, this country and anyone who does not allow debate on that are taking us the wrong way.

You cannot ignore Barrack Obama in this or any discussion of foreign policy....he is the singular author of it.

[Shimpy]

Originally Posted by Bucco

I respectfully disagree with you. Obviously your political hackles are geared up, and I suggest to you, the moderators and all THAT is EXACTLY WHY we are at this stage.

This is a discussion of major proportions to this country and the world. It is very difficult to discuss our countries foreign policy, which is the base for all of this, without discussing the President who is its author.

To not allow discussion of such a major event such as is being played out through the world because somebody has their feelings hurt due to criticism of the author, would be wrong in my opinion.

I, if you actually read any posts have tried very hard to propose a united front, but I am also a realist and perhaps that is not good right now.

If you run for the highest office, and call any criticism of the policy for which YOU AND YOU ALONE are responsible for to be political attacks, this country and anyone who does not allow debate on that are taking us the wrong way.

You cannot ignore Barrack Obama in this or any discussion of foreign policy....he is the singular author of it.

[Bucco]

I want to apologize to any offended by all my posts on this subject. I consider the consequences of where we are right now, AND how we got here to be of vital importance to this country.

Having said that I offer the below, and I know there are those who question some of the links, and to them I say....this is pretty important and you should close you political mind and open the country mind. There is a video clip with this if you wish.

"The individual in the clip, Nadeem Baloosh, is a member of an insurgent group called Riyadh Al Abdeen, which is active in the Latakia area of Syria.
Baloosh speaks of “chemicals which produce lethal and deadly gases that I possess,” before going on to state, “We decided to harm them through their women and kids.”
Baloosh ponders if it is acceptable to harm women and children before quoting the Koran, “Fight them as they fight you. ” He goes on to quote Osama Bin Laden (whom other rebel groups have openly praised).
“We’ll kill their women and children like Sheikh Osama Bin Laden said – “until they cease killing our women and kids,” he states.
Baloosh goes on to talk about the Syrian Army approaching the area where his rebel group was located, before stating, “So we had the idea that this weapon was very powerful and effective to repel them, we announced if they approached one meter, everything is permitted.”
“We will strike them in their homes, we will turn their day into night and their night into day,” adds Baloosh.
The footage adds to the increasing weight of evidence that suggests US-backed rebels possess and have used chemical weapons on more than one occasion, although such reports have been habitually downplayed by the mainstream media."

» Video: Syrian Rebel Admits Using Chemical Weapons Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

I have expressed my concern over who we help, and thus have been trying to find out what I can.

This is a bit disconcerting. Please do not say that this is how they live....fine but we are preparing to assist these folks with no explained strategy at all.

[ilovetv]

Here's a good question/assertion, by Patrick Buchanan:

"About the debate on this war, there is an aspect of the absurd.

We are told we must punish Assad for killing Syrians with gas, but we do not want Assad’s regime to fall. Which raises a question: How many Syrians must we kill with missiles to teach Assad he cannot kill any more Syrians with gas? Artillery, fine. Just no gas......"

Read more at Just whose war is this?

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

Here's a good question/assertion, by Patrick Buchanan:

"About the debate on this war, there is an aspect of the absurd.

We are told we must punish Assad for killing Syrians with gas, but we do not want Assad’s regime to fall. Which raises a question: How many Syrians must we kill with missiles to teach Assad he cannot kill any more Syrians with gas? Artillery, fine. Just no gas......"

Read more at Just whose war is this?

Last night and early this morning I was still saying ...do it to give support. As I have read today, my mind has changed rapidly.

Your link was interesting....this from that link.....

"Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Martin Dempsey is having trouble even defining the mission. While Obama says it will be an in-and-out strike of hours, a “shot across the bow,” John McCain says the Senate resolution authorizes robust strikes, lethal aid to the rebels and a campaign to bring down Bashar Assad.

If the Republican Party backs this war, it will own this war."

That last sentence, in listening to the President, and a few members of congress is pointing much to much to political games.

But how do we define this, without the President himself telling us what his plans are or how extensive the attacks will be ? I did note today he cancelled a meeting with some union leaders on Monday so perhaps we will hear more specifics.

I am sure that many on here think one of two things.....it is silly to spend time discussing this OR as a poster has says, this is just an excuse to bash the President.

I hope EVERYONE gets educated on this to see just how serious this could become. This is not trivial. Simply check the weaponry available to Syria and who they have as allies. Check our deployment of ships we have in the Red Sea and Med, and then check the soviet deployment right behind them.

As far as bashing the President, this is serious enough, I sincerely pray I can come on here and praise him for steering us out of this, but in the meantime, he and he alone authors our foreign policy...this is not a political rally error..we are talking death and destruction.