[Sandtrap328]

Originally Posted by Rags123

The OP made a relationship between the stock market and our economy and the best way to respond to that is to simply show snippets from the experts...

From the Economist...

"An oft-quoted argument for investing in emerging markets is their superior economic growth. But the professors have pointed out in the past that economic growth and equity returns are not correlated at all. Jay Ritter of the University of Florida has a paper on the same issue. If this lack of relationship seems odd, the professors' argument is more subtle; yes, it would be useful to be aware of future economic growth. But being aware of past economic growth does not help; or rather, it is a a contrary indicator. You would be best placed investing in the slower-growing economies of the past, not in the fastest."

Growth and markets: A puzzling discrepancy | The Economist

"In fact, there is little relationship between the magnitude of GDP growth and stock market performance."

Read more: Little Relationship Between Stocks, GDP - Business Insider


But to the point about being OFF THREAD SUBJECT, we really werent. There are many who think the economy is steaming but everyone is not sharing, thus the conversation relative to who is enjoying this trend. I believe the conversation was well in line with the thread topic.

The big number is the growth in GDP versus the growth of median income.

While there are a lot of good signs, in the last few years, the gap between the two had widened more than in any years since the beginning of 2000.

Without serious tax reform and an overhauling of entitlements, that gap is going to widen.

The market is not ever going to make our economy better so the 18000 is nice to applaud, it does not push sufficient growth for everyone to enjoy the fruits.

Let us hope that our new congress can work together to get some of this done and then we can cheer loudly.

What the OP (me) did was to take a quotation out of the December 24 issue of The Daily Sun meant to be some good economic news. It did not have sinister political meaning; it did not mean everything is hunky dunkie; it shows a positive direction of the economy.

[dbussone]

Alan is a former military officer and annually supports The Wounded Warrior Project by having UHS match employee contributions. He taught me many things when I was with UHS.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by Sandtrap328

What the OP (me) did was to take a quotation out of the December 24 issue of The Daily Sun meant to be some good economic news. It did not have sinister political meaning; it did not mean everything is hunky dunkie; it shows a positive direction of the economy.

Nobody said it had any meaning other than what you mentioned. You specifically discussed the 18000 mark reached on Wall St. and the realtionship with the growth in the economy, which by the way I have directly replied to.

Along the way, a few pointed out that companies were makin the money and not sharing it, then someone brought up the amount of pay of CEOs versus the worker, etc. I tried to return to the nature of the thread in post 24, but most seem to want to discuss the disparity in pay between the top and the bottom.

Speaking for myself, I never tried to make any political points and mentioned a few times about the positive aspect of this news. Others felt it more important to come from the aspect of CEOs versus workers.

By the way, as a regular religious watcher of CNBC among others, I welcome any conversations on the economy. This subject you brought up has been discussed quite a bit the last few weeks...it mostly is met with hopeful comments. HOWEVER, those who made it about the wage or salary difference would be disappointed if they actually reviewed the direction of the country in the last few years. There are a number of great analysis of this but they come off very p........ and thus I have not quoted them nor cited them.

I just tried to respond to the posts as they were made but again, I did respond DIRECTLY to what you said.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Rags123

That is quite a huge generalization you make about CEO's. I am sure that folks like Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs/Tim Cook might disagree with you totally especially the "skin in the game"

I assume you are aware that I said I did not include "entrepreneurs" in my comments. I presume you are also aware that Zuckerberg, Bezos, Gates, Buffet, and Jobs were all founders of their respective companies and therefore fit my definition of "entrepreneur".

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

I assume you are aware that I said I did not include "entrepreneurs" in my comments. I presume you are also aware that Zuckerberg, Bezos, Gates, Buffet, and Jobs were all founders of their respective companies and therefore fit my definition of "entrepreneur".

Yep, I sure did but your generalization was such that...well, all of those guys I have read extensively about.....know them well. They are not unique as it appears you think they are......but again, my suggestion is that you read about any CEO on the Fortune 500 list and read about their accomplishments in business and their accomplishments in society with giving time and money.

Yes, I know those you mention were founders....just struck me about the comment about no skin in the game....lots more of these guys that did not found but have mucho "skin in the game". Good inspiring men and women.

I also know that you often mention about charity and when and if you do read about most of these men and women, you will be stunned by the amount of money and time they give.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Rags123

Yep, I sure did but your generalization was such that...well, all of those guys I have read extensively about.....know them well. They are not unique as it appears you think they are......but again, my suggestion is that you read about any CEO on the Fortune 500 list and read about their accomplishments in business and their accomplishments in society with giving time and money.

Yes, I know those you mention were founders....just struck me about the comment about no skin in the game....lots more of these guys that did not found but have mucho "skin in the game". Good inspiring men and women.

I also know that you often mention about charity and when and if you do read about most of these men and women, you will be stunned by the amount of money and time they give.

Read my post again Bucco.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by eweissenbach

Read my post again Bucco.

This is your post in total...

" Originally Posted by eweissenbach View Post
I would agree IF you were talKing strictly about entrepreneur CEOs, however the CEOs of most Fortune 500 companies have little or no skin in the game aside from the value of their stock options. Responsibilility, yes, but often the underlings answer for poor performance, while the CEO, convinces the shareholders that it was their fault rather than his/hers, or decides that a massive layoff to cut payroll will make the bottom line look better. Now some CEOs are worth every penny, but I am not convinced most are. On the other hand, entrepreneurs, such as Morse, are worth all they accumulate because they did take all the risk and created a stellar product out of dirt."

I highlighted in red those aspects I chose to respond to.

If you felt I did not understand your post, I am sorry, but I think I understood it totally.

And there I thought I posted as RAGS123, and you used BUCCO again...well, so be it I guess.

I am out of here...the OP did not like the direction of the thread and this is becoming personal posts which is against the rules of TOTV.

[eweissenbach]

Originally Posted by Rags123

This is your post in total...

" Originally Posted by eweissenbach View Post
I would agree IF you were talKing strictly about entrepreneur CEOs, however the CEOs of most Fortune 500 companies have little or no skin in the game aside from the value of their stock options. Responsibilility, yes, but often the underlings answer for poor performance, while the CEO, convinces the shareholders that it was their fault rather than his/hers, or decides that a massive layoff to cut payroll will make the bottom line look better. Now some CEOs are worth every penny, but I am not convinced most are. On the other hand, entrepreneurs, such as Morse, are worth all they accumulate because they did take all the risk and created a stellar product out of dirt."

I highlighted in red those aspects I chose to respond to.

If you felt I did not understand your post, I am sorry, but I think I understood it totally.

And there I thought I posted as RAGS123, and you used BUCCO again...well, so be it I guess.

I am out of here...the OP did not like the direction of the thread and this is becoming personal posts which is against the rules of TOTV.

It s convenient I suppose, or fits your agenda, to respond ONLY to the part of my post that you pull out of context. The preceding sentence CLEARLY stated that I was not including entrepreneurs in my statement.

[pbkmaine]

To me, it's not whether CEOs are good people or bad people. It's about the rate at which CEO pay has risen since I was a kid, and the effect it has had on society. In the 1960's, CEO pay was about 20 times that of the average worker. Now it's about 300 times. I think these articles are questioning the appropriateness of this kind of pay disparity. Is anyone's job worth so much money? Europeans believe a large middle class is the key to a stable society. I think many are seeing in this country the erosion of the middle class. Is income becoming more like a barbell of rich and poor, with fewer in the middle? I don't have any answers myself. I believe that hard work should bring rewards. But some of the rewards seem out of proportion to me.

[Chi-Town]

Originally Posted by Sandtrap328

What the OP (me) did was to take a quotation out of the December 24 issue of The Daily Sun meant to be some good economic news. It did not have sinister political meaning; it did not mean everything is hunky dunkie; it shows a positive direction of the economy.

It's amazing how good news upsets some mind sets.

[graciegirl]

I don't understand some posters are so against big companies and big business.

Big business can buy things in bulk and lower operating costs. Big business is able to do what small business can't do; save consumers money and operate at a number of locations. Why do people on the political left malign this type of business operations over and over. It just looks to me like they are jealous of the big bucks that CEO's make.

Business is business. So many posters expect a business to hand over an advantage, like handing the football to the opposing team.

WHY is it WRONG for a CEO to make big bucks?? WHAT does giving to charity have anything to do with this discussion?

It just sounds like people talking who have always been employed by the government or a school or a non profit.

I really don't understand why people constantly post on Facebook things that put down large corporations. I have unfriended several people because I grow tired of hearing it.

Not all big business are ethical, but not all big business is unethical. It is the same with people of modest means. When you are running a company you use plans to make the company expand, increase profit and employ more people and make more money for yourself. That is how it works.

If a person is successful and makes a lot of money working for large corporations or running large corporation does not mean he or she is not conscious or helpful of others. Nor does it mean that a person of modest means is kind and helpful of others.

AND ED. We all know Rags is Bucco. He has discussed this. There are other posters on here with two screen names too.

[Rags123]

To the discussion about CEO pay and the wages paid to workers. There is an article from the Economist that speaks to this and the rise in GDP versus the median wages.

I know folks are tiptoeing around any p...... reference and I will also but most articles on this subject use terms in the WH as the basis.

" In ...... ....’s first six years GDP rose 16%, but median incomes fell 2%. Under .. ..... it has been even worse: GDP is up 8% and median income is down 4%, according to the Census Bureau and Sentier Research, a private outfit."

Barack Obama and the economy: The woes of the average Joe | The Economist

This is speaking to the last 14 years, and the point is NOT p........ but it is economic.

Hitting 18000 is a good sign, but it does not solve our problems. Tax cuts and addressing entitlements is what is needed. We shall see.

By the way, the link is a very fair article and gives credit where credit is due. It has charts to make its point.

[dbussone]

Originally Posted by pbkmaine

To me, it's not whether CEOs are good people or bad people. It's about the rate at which CEO pay has risen since I was a kid, and the effect it has had on society. In the 1960's, CEO pay was about 20 times that of the average worker. Now it's about 300 times. I think these articles are questioning the appropriateness of this kind of pay disparity. Is anyone's job worth so much money? Europeans believe a large middle class is the key to a stable society. I think many are seeing in this country the erosion of the middle class. Is income becoming more like a barbell of rich and poor, with fewer in the middle? I don't have any answers myself. I believe that hard work should bring rewards. But some of the rewards seem out of proportion to me.

Please go back and re-read the post by Rags123. He notes a number of important points., including the fact that the AFL-CIO study included only 350 CEO salaries. That there are hundreds of thousands of companies in the U.S. That the average CEO salary is $178,000. That the average worker makes $35,000. And therefore the AVERAGE CEO only makes about 5 times what the average worker makes. It is true that a small percentage make extremely high sums of money. It is also true that the AFL-CIO report is extremely misleading in its efforts to paint all CEOs with the same paintbrush. Rags sources were the WSJ and BLS.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by Chi-Town

It's amazing how good news upsets some mind sets.

You are sure misreading this entire thread. OP began a thread based on good news BUT applied it to the economy.

Another poster veered, not that much, but veered to corporate wages versus worker wages and the responses were to that theme.

PLEASE, do not put thoughts into my mind. I am extremely happy about the 18000, but the good news we need is to have congress and the WH get together and attack the real problem...tax reform and the entitlement adjustments. If they can do that, then we will see the economy show real growth.

Anyone who is not happy with the 18000 is living in a cave, but also in a cave if anyone thinks that the dow is the end all to our economic woes especially the divide in wages.

[Rags123]

If you really want a rosy picture of our country right now and want credit to be handed out...read the link below. I will give you just the last paragraph but it is all upbeat and positive...

"You don’t have to endorse Obama’s economic philosophy to realize that it hasn’t wreaked short-term havoc, just as you don’t have to endorse the Obama or George W. Bush anti-terror philosophies to acknowledge that America hasn’t endured a rash of terror attacks since 2001. Last week, polls finally found a majority of Americans recognizing that the economy is improving, which is to say a majority of Americans are recognizing reality. It’s probably time for politicians to discover a new Ebola to scream about.
There is no shortage of candidates in this less-than-perfect union. The U.S. is still plagued by inadequate public schools, crumbling infrastructure, soaring college tuition costs, stark inequality. Many Americans want accountability for reckless bankers, torturers and fatal choke-holders. Washington is still almost as dysfunctional as everyone says it is. Congress this session really was the second least productive ever. And even though Obama is winding down the U.S. involvement in overseas wars, the world remains a scary place. There’s still plenty to worry about."


Read more: Everything Is Awesome! - Michael Grunwald - POLITICO Magazine

This is an opinion piece you will love CHITOWN.....