[outlaw]

Mass shootings in America
By decade:[4]
1900′s:0
1910′s:2
1920′s:2
1930′s:9
1940′s:8
1950′s:1
1960′s:6
1970′s:13
1980′s:32
1990′s:42
2000′s:28
2010-2013:14

Worst Years:
1991: 8
1999,2012:7

[Taltarzac725]

[QUOTE=Bonnevie;1123386]

Originally Posted by goodtimesintv

THIS, not the guns, is the elephant in the room!


"The past decade lays out tragic evidence of the thread uniting mass shootings and mental illness:

* Seung-Hui Cho. As a child, Cho was diagnosed with severe anxiety disorder and placed under treatment. On December 13, 2005, he was found "mentally ill and in need of hospitalization. On April 16, 2007, he killed 32 people and wounded 17 others at a University in Virginia.

* Jiverly Wong. In a letter dated March 18, 2009, Wong expressed his concerns to a local television station that undercover police officers were changing the channels on his television, making the air “unbreathable,” and had figured out a way to play music directly into his ear. On April 3, 2009, Wong walked into the American Civic Association immigration center in Binghamton, New York and killed 13 people, wounding four others.

* Maj. Nidal Hasan. In early 2009, the mental health officials who worked alongside Hasan held a series of meetings where they discussed his bizarre and paranoid behavior. Some openly wondered whether Hasan was psychotic. On November 5, 2009, Hasan opened fire at an army base near Fort Hood, Texas, killing 13 people and wounding 30 others.

* Jared Loughner. On September 10, 2010, Loughner was asked to leave Pima Community College in Tucson on mental health grounds – a psychologist who reviewed his journals believes he showed symptoms of schizophrenia. Four months later Loughner unloaded his 9mm Glock pistol into the parking lot of a Tucson shopping mall, killing six and injuring 13.

* James Holmes. Between March 16th and June 11, 2012, the psychiatrist who treated Holmes, Dr. Lynn Fenton, wrote in her notes that Holmes "may be shifting insidiously into a frank psychotic disorder such as schizophrenia.” On July 20, 2012 Holmes walked into an Aurora, Colorado movie theater and killed 12 people, injuring 70 others.

* Aaron Alexis. On August 4, 2013, naval police were called to Alexis' hotel at Naval Station Newport and found that he had "taken apart his bed, believing someone was hiding under it, and observed that Alexis had taped a microphone to the ceiling to record the voices of people that were following him.” On September 16, 2013, Alexis fatally shot 12 people and injured three others at the Washington Navy Yard.

In the case of Newtown, Connecticut shooter Adam Lanza, the warning signs of a severe mental health issue were right out in the open for everyone to see.

Adam, who was diagnosed as a child with Sensory Perception Disorder, a condition that made made bright lights, loud sounds and certain textures unbearable, secluded himself in his bedroom for weeks at a time. While left to himself he covered his windows with dark garbage bags to block the light out, and spent his time played violent video games and studying mass killers, compiling an extensive database that read like a scorecard.

A Yale psychiatrist who briefly treated Lanza says he "displayed a profound autism spectrum disorder with rigidity, isolation and a lack of comprehension of ordinary social interaction and communications.”

Lanza never accepted his diagnosis and refused to take medication or undergo further treatment. Since he was over the age of 18, his mother, Nancy Lanza, who was acutely aware of his severe mental health issues, could only hope for the best.

This severely mentally ill young man, obsessed with violence and surrounded by automatic weapons, who had cut off almost everyone he cared about, made a series of terrifying posts all but telegraphing the future violence on a public on the mass-killer website.

In December 2011 he posted. “It goes without saying that an AK-47 and enough ammunition could do more good than a thousand 'teachers,' if one is truly interested in reforming the system…[the children] are already dead.”

On December 14, 2012, in Newtown, Connecticut, Lanza fatally shot 20 children and 6 adult staff members at Sandy Hook elementary.....


just as you don't want gun rights restricted, in these cases the people at the time did not meet the current criteria for commitment, which is they did not appear to be a danger to themselves or others. So with mental health, the slope is just as slippery. When is someone just "odd" or when are they possible mass murderers? do we commit every person who is different...and what constitutes difference? in the case of Lanza, the person who should possibly be held more accountable is the gun owner....who, while knowing of her son's mental health, left him alone without properly securing her large quantities of weapons. just as there are millions of responsible gun owners, there are millions of people who have been treated for mental disorders who will never be mass murderers.

What all these people do have in common is the ability to arm themselves with weapons capable of shooting many people, very quickly.

This latest shooter had:

Investigators found 13 firearms connected to shooter, Celinez Nunez of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives said.

maybe the shear numbers of one's weaponry should be a flag. I realize that some people collect them, but what would be wrong for more stringent checks on people owning certain kinds of weapons and that many.

Good input again. Nosey neighbors might be part of the solution. And more data mining by the FBI and other groups of Facebook pages and the like. I have no idea what the FBI is doing now about threats of Facebook but you would think that some of these people had Facebook pages which should have set up various warning signs.

I have lived in some places though where the neighbors hardly pay any attention to one another unlike the Villages.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by outlaw

First, when I wrote "I" in my comment, it was as a representative of the American citizen. "I" is much shorter. I should have said American citizens right should not be infringed. If you want to restrict an American citizen's right to bear arms, then you should work to change the amendment, not make laws that violate the amendment. Or better yet, work to have the government enforce the already onerous laws on the books. If you really want an in depth understanding of the 2nd A, I recommend you read this analysis A CRITICAL GUIDE TO THE SECOND AMENDMENT . It's pretty long, but if you really are interested in understanding the meaning of the 2nd A words and intentions of the authors, I think you will enjoy it.

Thanks for posting that. Not sure if I would call that an in-depth understanding though of the history of guns in the US and the laws that control them. It is more about what the US Supreme Court and a few Founding Fathers said about the 2nd Amendment. I see the US Constitution as a living document and not a dead one. Considerations about 2015 should be the main analysis not what was going on in 1789.

Better reading might be-- American Gun: A History of the U.S. in Ten Firearms (P.S.): Chris Kyle, William Doyle: 9780062242723: Amazon.com: Books and other books about how people using guns have shaped US history.

[cologal]

Here in the United States we have the right of Free Speech and also to own a gun. That being said even Free Speech has been regulated example, You can't stand up in a Movie Theater yelling Fire.

Allowing people with mental health issues to own a gun, to me, is the same as allow someone to yell Fire in a crowded room. Bad things are bound to happen.

I haven't heard the statement from the NRA yet but some of their usual statements cannot be used.

1. This school was NOT a "gun free zone". There was an armed guard on the grounds. And there were student packing on campus....legal in Oregon.

2. A good guy with a gun could have stopped a bad gun with a gun. Nope one student with a gun decided not to engage the bad guy for fear of being caught in a crossfire.

I do favor background checks which include the mental health history of the purchaser.

[outlaw]

FYI. This in USA Today:
According to a careful analysis of data on mass shootings (using the widely accepted definition of at least four killed), the Congressional Research Service found that there are, on average, just over 20 incidents annually. More important, the increase in cases, if there was one at all, is negligible. Indeed, the only genuine increase is in hype and hysteria.

James Alan Fox is the Lipman Professor of Criminology, Law and Public Policy at Northeastern University

[outlaw]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Thanks for posting that. Not sure if I would call that an in-depth understanding though of the history of guns in the US and the laws that control them. It is more about what the US Supreme Court and a few Founding Fathers said about the 2nd Amendment. I see the US Constitution as a living document and not a dead one. Considerations about 2015 should be the main analysis not what was going on in 1789.

Better reading might be-- American Gun: A History of the U.S. in Ten Firearms (P.S.): Chris Kyle, William Doyle: 9780062242723: Amazon.com: Books and other books about how people using guns have shaped US history.

I never said it was an analysis of any kind regarding the history of guns and gun laws. It is about the 2nd A. Did you even read it, all of it?

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by Sandtrap328

Look at the murder rate by handgun in countries where ownership of handguns is prohibited. They are much lower than here in the US.

However, the Supreme Court has reaffirmed that private ownership of handguns is guaranteed by the Constitution, so it is law of the land.

Even we, who do not believe it is right, must respect that right.

Likewise, others who do not believe other Supreme Court decisions, have to respect those decisions also - same sex marriage, ACA, etc.

Honduras, which does not allow it's citizens to own guns, has the highest homicide rate in the world.

Switzerland which has a very high rate of gun ownership has a very low homicide rate.

We have more gun control laws on the books now than at any time in our history yet the problem of mass shootings has grown over the past fifty years or so. It seems that the more laws we pass the worse the problem has gotten. I'm not claiming cause and effect, but I do believe that all of the laws we have passed in an effort to control this problem have not worked. What makes people think that passing more meaningless laws will work.

In this most recent case, as in many of the cases, took place in a gun free zone. I believe that if this had happened in The Villages, the shooter would have been taken out by one of the many people who choose to arm themselves here. Gun free zones could be renamed "Safe Hunting Area".

This crackpot was only stopped when a police officer with a gun showed up and stopped him. If several of these students or teachers had been armed, I believe that there would have been fewer casualties. In fact if the shooter knew that there were several armed people in that school, he might have been dissuaded from going there.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by outlaw

FYI. This in USA Today:
According to a careful analysis of data on mass shootings (using the widely accepted definition of at least four killed), the Congressional Research Service found that there are, on average, just over 20 incidents annually. More important, the increase in cases, if there was one at all, is negligible. Indeed, the only genuine increase is in hype and hysteria.

James Alan Fox is the Lipman Professor of Criminology, Law and Public Policy at Northeastern University

James Alan Fox: Umpqua shooting - a tragedy, not a trend

Here is a link to his article. I would be more interested though in what the victims of these many shootings have to say.

This comes from another source but does probably include drug deals gone bad and the like-- Mass Shootings in 2015 - Mass Shooting Tracker

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Approximately 33,000 people die from gun related causes (including 21,000 by suicide) in this country each year. I would say that many of those who decide to kill themselves would find other means if a gun were not available.

On the other hand approximately, 88,000 deaths are caused by consumption of alcohol.

Why do we not have a movement to better control alcohol? Why are there no calls for more alcohol control laws?

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by outlaw

I never said it was an analysis of any kind regarding the history of guns and gun laws. It is about the 2nd A. Did you even read it, all of it?

I read it. Kind of boring law review analysis designed for law professors and other academics. He seems to be influenced quite a bit by the thinking of Thomas Kuhn and his various models and the like. Kuhn's field was the history of science and paradigms. I doubt if many Congressmen and women are thinking about paradigms though not would the Founding Fathers have been writing in terms of these but probably based on their readings of English, Roman and Greek history while not trying to make a living in 1789 America.

The 2nd Amendment is about the right to bear arms. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment The debate is about who has that right-- people, a militia, a standing army, etc.

This also from 1995-- A CRITICAL GUIDE TO THE SECOND AMENDMENT Quite a lot of important events in the gun debate from then to now.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

Approximately 33,000 people die from gun related causes (including 21,000 by suicide) in this country each year. I would say that many of those who decide to kill themselves would find other means if a gun were not available.

On the other hand approximately, 88,000 deaths are caused by consumption of alcohol.

Why do we not have a movement to better control alcohol? Why are there no calls for more alcohol control laws?

There are a lot of alcohol control laws especially if you have had a drunk driving conviction.

[Cedwards38]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

Approximately 33,000 people die from gun related causes (including 21,000 by suicide) in this country each year. I would say that many of those who decide to kill themselves would find other means if a gun were not available.

On the other hand approximately, 88,000 deaths are caused by consumption of alcohol.

Why do we not have a movement to better control alcohol? Why are there no calls for more alcohol control laws?

Well, there probably is a movement, but a big difference I see here is that I can't buy alcohol and decide to drink somebody else to death.

[cologal]

Lisa Booth, Fox News, just lied on National Television about the Oregon shooting.

She stated the shooting site was a "Gun Free Zone"....it was NOT! Oregon law allows concealed carry at secondary education site, there was an armed guard and several students were packing.

Hardly a "GUN FREE ZONE"!!!!

Tell the truth......

[Cedwards38]

Just food for thought. I don't know what to do, but I think we have to do something.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by cologal

Lisa Booth, Fox News, just lied on National Television about the Oregon shooting.

She stated the shooting site was a "Gun Free Zone"....it was NOT! Oregon law allows concealed carry at secondary education site, there was an armed guard and several students were packing.

Hardly a "GUN FREE ZONE"!!!!

Tell the truth......

Debate, and Confusion, Over Oregon'''s Gun Rules After Deadly Shooting - NBC News

There seems to be a debate about the words used in the Oregon tragedy.