[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by billethkid

Spineless, cowards! Punks!

If the perpetrators had yellow hair and green skin would one not state....they had yellow hair and green skin? That certainly would not be racist. Nor is it racist to describe the perpetrators as "black".....it happens to be a descriptive fact.

btk

100% correct.

[Golfingnut]

Hummmmmm. Also correct. Keep on point Buggy.

Lou

[BobnBev]

Originally Posted by blueash

So you obviously read the link provided by GG and the only part you felt was worthy of comment was on the race and clothing of the suspects?

It sounds like Mr. Belton was a gem. Giving and generous. He will be missed. His death was senseless no matter what the age, race, sex, religion, clothing or ethnicity of the suspects. Nuff said.

YEP!!! Nuff said

Even an ostrich takes his head out of the sand once in awhile...Nuff said

[Bill Tasker]

I don’t profess to know what the answer is but I do know that my siblings and I were taught right from wrong at early stages and our actions were reinforced with consequences. That doesn’t mean we were angels but it certainly made us think twice.
The family nucleus is definitely broken. Whether a two or one parent family it takes everything you have to stay afloat. Kids are shuffled around and left alone so much today it’s nearly impossible for them to bond with anyone for any meaningful length of time.

[ugotme]

I agree with all the posts here regarding family values.

A lot of kids today think they SHOULD BE privileged.

They want to start a job at $50K or more with no real education or experience. It is owed to them. They don't want to work for $8 or $10 an hour and gain experience - THEY WANT IT NOW !!!!

[gomoho]

Bucco - I agree - blaming poverty is the easy way to explain all this away. It's not poverty that causes the problem, but what you do with your circumstances in poverty.
My husband, as many others on TOTV, grew up dirt poor but he had a mother that made him understand the importance of education and doing for yourself. Definitely no sense of entitlement which is one of our society's biggest problems today.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by Bucco

Trying to stay on thread here, but blaming all of this on poverty as many do does not wash with me anyway.....the poor of the 30's and 40's made it and I am sure there was crime but not like what is happening today.
They had one thing that Grace pointed out...a family, a discipline system..a focus.

We have lost all of that.....do you know, to your point, that while I was in Tampa I discovered that groups got together to train others how to beat the system....how to insure you never work ?

I am for for doing all we can help, but we are doing a poor job of insuring it is done correctly, with compassion and fairness. By not even discussing welfare versus min wage is wrong...no matter the accuracy of the numbers. IT IS AN ISSUE....again, we seem to be predisposed to make every thing political instead of using common sense.

So what was the murder rate in the 30's when "crime was not happening like it is today'?
List of countries by intentional homicide rate by decade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't you hate it when your assumptions are disproven by real data? 1930 murder rate 8.8 2011 rate 4.7 Not even close. I strongly agree that raising the minimum wage is part of a solution. My earlier post on the Cato institutes study was deleted as off topic, correctly by the moderator

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by blueash

So what was the murder rate in the 30's when "crime was not happening like it is today'?
List of countries by intentional homicide rate by decade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't you hate it when your assumptions are disproven by real data? 1930 murder rate 8.8 2011 rate 4.7 Not even close. I strongly agree that raising the minimum wage is part of a solution. My earlier post on the Cato institutes study was deleted as off topic, correctly by the moderator

I try to respond to anything addressed to me, whether good or bad, whether I am correct or not and thus will try here. I wish you did the same, as you seem to exclude things from your responses and simply pick and choose which is your right, but a message board is for sharing thoughts and I enjoy reading everyones. I actually witnessed first hand the solicitation of young men to join in learning how to beat the system in Tampa....how to defraud the IRS and never ever worry about working.

I looked up NO stats before thus will accept what you say....and I am sure now you can say you told me so, but I still believe your posting this is either just to show how smart you are or some sort of okay for the punks who do stuff like this....I dont know and actually dont care.

I still feel the same way about what is happening in this country. We (well not all we) seem to come up with an excuse and it IS and excuse about poverty,etc as some sort of excuse for these things.....obviously, that is a factor but we in this country are never going to have a dialogue as long as we excuse adults for their killing by discussing their bank account or lack of.

I will not bore you with my stats on poverty....I mean what I lived through...I am sure you do not care......but never...ever would I think of that as an excuse for anything. Poverty is what you and others bring up always, but the breakdown in the family (but then again, you might say that is not fair..they are this or that) is another reason. A problem never to be solved until we face it without all the reasons and just look for solutions.

Sorry for the lecture and thanks again for the crime stats.

To try and stay on the thread.....I, certainly, and I do not think that society should feel guilty about punks like these.....I,and I do not think society caused whatever their problems are. I am not sure what you think did but would like to hear...you obviously think poverty was one major reason and do not because also in Tampa, I saw many very poor families that had strong bonds and ties and made sure the kids had discipline and stressed education and working to them...and they were doing pretty good (I can PM someday and tell you of the black guy who made it to Tampa Tech ON HIS OWN (private school) and has a great future.....great family he had...poorer than you can ever imagine.

Anyway, disagreeing is fine...I no longer intend to blame crimes like this on society and political things.

[BobnBev]

Originally Posted by Bucco

I try to respond to anything addressed to me, whether good or bad, whether I am correct or not and thus will try here. I wish you did the same, as you seem to exclude things from your responses and simply pick and choose which is your right, but a message board is for sharing thoughts and I enjoy reading everyones. I actually witnessed first hand the solicitation of young men to join in learning how to beat the system in Tampa....how to defraud the IRS and never ever worry about working.

I looked up NO stats before thus will accept what you say....and I am sure now you can say you told me so, but I still believe your posting this is either just to show how smart you are or some sort of okay for the punks who do stuff like this....I dont know and actually dont care.

I still feel the same way about what is happening in this country. We (well not all we) seem to come up with an excuse and it IS and excuse about poverty,etc as some sort of excuse for these things.....obviously, that is a factor but we in this country are never going to have a dialogue as long as we excuse adults for their killing by discussing their bank account or lack of.

I will not bore you with my stats on poverty....I mean what I lived through...I am sure you do not care......but never...ever would I think of that as an excuse for anything. Poverty is what you and others bring up always, but the breakdown in the family (but then again, you might say that is not fair..they are this or that) is another reason. A problem never to be solved until we face it without all the reasons and just look for solutions.

Sorry for the lecture and thanks again for the crime stats.

To try and stay on the thread.....I, certainly, and I do not think that society should feel guilty about punks like these.....I,and I do not think society caused whatever their problems are. I am not sure what you think did but would like to hear...you obviously think poverty was one major reason and do not because also in Tampa, I saw many very poor families that had strong bonds and ties and made sure the kids had discipline and stressed education and working to them...and they were doing pretty good (I can PM someday and tell you of the black guy who made it to Tampa Tech ON HIS OWN (private school) and has a great future.....great family he had...poorer than you can ever imagine.

Anyway, disagreeing is fine...I no longer intend to blame crimes like this on society and political things.

BRAVO!!! BRAVO!!!

[gomoho]

Bucco - I don't think I would let society of the hook so easily. If these crimes weren't accepted by society I don't think they would be so rampant. And they are accepted when society keeps making excuses for why these things happen.

[graciegirl]

Blueash?
My grandfather was a police officer in Ohio for 37 years and never once fired his gun. I don't recall knowing anyone who was murdered growing up. I was discussing this issue with Sweetie that there were more murders per 100K some 40-50 years ago than now and we couldn't believe it. He had the same memories. Do you suppose there were more gang and mafia killings in the super big cities that caused these figures to be higher? Is someone a student of this kind of statistic that could explain this?

Why do you think raising the minimum wage would cause things to be better in this particular issue? If you don't want to work for eight dollars, you probably won't want to work for fifteen.

I see new residents here from Mexico working so hard in terrible heat and I think, watch out, these folks are gonna make good lives for themselves.

I so admire people who are willing to work for a living. Even a meager living. You have to start somewhere.

[Bay Kid]

Originally Posted by Bucco

Two issues raised in this discussion....first the issue of working versus not working.

We had a long discussion on a thread about the minimum wage here a short time ago. I never recall a thread or discussion on the raising of welfare levels.
Why do I bring this up...

"Bay State welfare recipients have little incentive to get jobs because government assistance pays better, according to a study by a Washington, D.C.-based libertarian think tank that pegs Massachusetts as the third-most generous in the nation in doling out welfare funds.

�Clearly, the level of benefits in Massachusetts acts as a disincentive to work,� said Michael Tanner, the lead author of the �Work Versus Welfare Trade-Off� study by the Cato Institute.

The institute found Massachusetts ranks third nationally with $42,515 in welfare benefits handed out to the �typical recipient,� behind Hawaii at $49,175, and Washington, D.C., at $43,099."

- See more at: Study: Welfare pays better | Boston Herald

In 13 states it is much more attractive to be on welfare than working for minimum wage. Why work.......

Second, someone commented on the race. While I find discussion of race uncomfortable and actually distasteful, IF I am to believe those posters who posted on the Zimmerman thread, then the race of these punks is a definitive factor.

There is a race problem in this country and it is about time, we recognize it runs TWO ways, and not one. I, for one, am tired of being made to feel guilty.

BUT...as I think Gracie has said a number of times...it always go back to the family and parenting. We actually make fun of marriage and family life....we smile at divorce.....we have a laugh about folks getting pregnant not out of love or family but to increase the welfare check. We are then made to feel guilty for discussing it.....what can you expect to come from generations of this ?

I could live on +$40,000. a year, make a little extra on the side and have tons of free time. NO WAY! I will EARN half and be happy.

[blueash]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Blueash?
My grandfather was a police officer in Ohio for 37 years and never once fired his gun. I don't recall knowing anyone who was murdered growing up. I was discussing this issue with Sweetie that there were more murders per 100K some 40-50 years ago than now and we couldn't believe it. He had the same memories. Do you suppose there were more gang and mafia killings in the super big cities that caused these figures to be higher? Is someone a student of this kind of statistic that could explain this?

Why do you think raising the minimum wage would cause things to be better in this particular issue? If you don't want to work for eight dollars, you probably won't want to work for fifteen.

I see new residents here from Mexico working so hard in terrible heat and I think, watch out, these folks are gonna make good lives for themselves.

I so admire people who are willing to work for a living. Even a meager living. You have to start somewhere.

Great questions. I can't really offer real data, as I prefer to do, when asked for information so all I have to offer is possibilities. The murder rate is about half of what it was in the 30's. There is no information I could find on who the victims were and whether murders were connected to organized crime. I didn't know anyone murdered as I grew up in Western New York, and I have known no one who has ever been murdered in my life. Mrs BA however had a uncle murdered in the 60's in his store in Dayton OH, no suspect ever caught.
I think many have the sense that there are more of these crimes for the simple reason that we have CNN, Fox, MSNBC, TOTV etc. with a propensity to bring any horrible events to our attention. In the past we had 25 mins of national news which focused on the big issues of the day both national and international and local news was 10 minutes news, 10 minutes weather, and 10 minutes sports. So we didn't hear about murders in Oklahoma or kidnappings in Aruba, or have Nancy Grace and Gretta finding the attractive white female victim or suspect of the day to broadcast into our consciousness 60 minutes a day.
I don't know that this is the right thread for discussion of the pros and cons of raising the minimum wage and what impact it might have on crime. Crime occurs in all socio-economic groups (Bernie Madoff) but "street" crime is more common in lower SE groups. Envy or hunger, lack of role models, lack of education, or myriad other factors whatever the triggers crossover to crime is more likely to happen when there is hopelessness. When you and I were kids the country believed in upward mobility. Then if you got a job at Ford or in the steel mill or as a teacher you would be paid a wage that would support a family on one income and included fringe benefits and maybe even a pension. There are plenty of people here in TV living well on government or private industry pensions who came from poverty and had the great fortune to be born into an economy that had that kind of opportunity. Stay out of trouble and be willing to work hard and you will be well cared for by the structure of the nation. That economy is GONE. Even for college graduates, even with masters and doctorates there is no clear path to success.
Immigrants have always been a great asset to America. The people who are willing to travel across oceans or across borders are risk takers, hard workers, dreamers willing to take risks for the possibility of improving their lives and thereby the lives of their family and our community. Please let them keep coming. I certainly agree that if every American had the work ethic and gumption of our immigrants that would be a great thing. But it is not a realistic option. We are getting some of the best of the best willing to live here under minimum living standards and putting up with a foreign culture and language and by the way the highly negative attitude of a segment of our nation toward them, to have a chance. Suffice it to say that if we make our poor starving poor, hopeless poor, sick poor, desperate poor then the number who will turn to crime will only increase. "Only two of the 33 countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) devote a smaller share of their economic output to programs that help poor families make ends meet than the United States � Mexico and South Korea." We are not over helping our disadvantaged. Too long a post. sorry

[manaboutown]

Looks like they apprehended this thug. Manhunt in WWII Vet's Beating Death Ends with Teen's Arrest - Yahoo!

He apparently received help while on the lam and others have been arrested for rendering criminal assistance. Great news!

[buggyone]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

WWII vet, 88, brutally beaten to death in Spokane, Wash. - U.S. News

My uncles fought in WWII. This gentleman was 88 years old. Again this was teens, more than one. How absolutely awful and cowardly and senseless. I cannot think of a punishment bad enough. They killed him by beating him. What could motivate such a thing?

What could motivate such a thing?

Check page A10 of this morning's (8/28) Daily Sun. Apparently, the 88 year old veteran was the crack cocaine dealer to the teenagers and he had shorted them on a recent transaction.