Originally Posted by Guest

There shouldn't be now either...how the hell do gangs get away with operating indiscriminately like they do? EVERYONE knows who they are...conduct a huge raid and clean them out. House by house rounding up gang members...until eventually, we get them all.

Too Nazi for you?

Sometimes that's what it takes.

The solution isn't letting them run wild.

You know who they are? You should lead the raid baldy, be the big man you are in your mind.

Originally Posted by Guest

There shouldn't be now either...how the hell do gangs get away with operating indiscriminately like they do? EVERYONE knows who they are...conduct a huge raid and clean them out. House by house rounding up gang members...until eventually, we get them all.

Too Nazi for you?

Sometimes that's what it takes.

The solution isn't letting them run wild.

These gangs are not a direct result of immigration. Their genisis is mostly economic, and we stopped addressing that.

That does not mean that our country does not need immigration reform...it does.

It, however, must be bi partisan and comprehensive, and not a series of bans, etc.

Problem is, bot the right and left are now being controlled by extremists, not statesman.

No one in the administration is reaching out to begin meaningful conversation, and it has to begin there. Obama did not strongly pursue either, but right up to the conventions, there was a bi partisan movement for the bi partisan approach. That was crumbled in the rhetoric of the campaign.

Originally Posted by Don Baldwin

There shouldn't be now either...how the hell do gangs get away with operating indiscriminately like they do? EVERYONE knows who they are...conduct a huge raid and clean them out. House by house rounding up gang members...until eventually, we get them all.

Too Nazi for you?

Sometimes that's what it takes.

The solution isn't letting them run wild.

I agree with you on this one Donny boy. Too Nazi ? Nah

[emoji137]🏼*♂️


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Guest

These gangs are not a direct result of immigration. Their genisis is mostly economic, and we stopped addressing that.

That does not mean that our country does not need immigration reform...it does.

It, however, must be bi partisan and comprehensive, and not a series of bans, etc.

Problem is, bot the right and left are now being controlled by extremists, not statesman.

No one in the administration is reaching out to begin meaningful conversation, and it has to begin there. Obama did not strongly pursue either, but right up to the conventions, there was a bi partisan movement for the bi partisan approach. That was crumbled in the rhetoric of the campaign.

Bullsh!t...they're not going out and stealing food or blankets. They're fighting over turf, land, to control. EVERYONE of them can find a bed and a meal if that's what they need. Their mothers collect welfare. Their women are on welfare with their kids. It's NOT economic...STOP believing the propaganda bullsh!t. It's THEM...they DON'T KNOW HOW to be CIVILIZED.

The specific question asked ( the thread's title) is

"Analysis: Would the U.S. benefit from a merit-based immigration system?" operative words would the US benefit

To begin with its my view that illegal immigration is well illegal and so I am against illegals entering the country,

Secondly we are talking about today's America and not the America of our forefathers.

Third like any national issue there are competing voices

Analysis. Trump's bill will cut immigrants coming to America because he restricts family immigration and proposes employer-sponsored green car point system

One benefit would be immigrants who come here speaking English and with the necessary life skills and employment which will be a benefit to employers and to taxpayers (twofold) because they will not have to support these immigrants and these immigrants become taxpayer

The downside is that by restricting legal immigration this bill may actually resort to more illegal immigration

Pick your poison,

Personal Best Regards:

Originally Posted by Guest

The specific question asked ( the thread's title) is

"Analysis: Would the U.S. benefit from a merit-based immigration system?" operative words would the US benefit

To begin with its my view that illegal immigration is well illegal and so I am against illegals entering the country,

Secondly we are talking about today's America and not the America of our forefathers.

Third like any national issue there are competing voices

Analysis. Trump's bill will cut immigrants coming to America because he restricts family immigration and proposes employer-sponsored green car point system

One benefit would be immigrants who come here speaking English and with the necessary life skills and employment which will be a benefit to employers and to taxpayers (twofold) because they will not have to support these immigrants and these immigrants become taxpayer

The downside is that by restricting legal immigration this bill may actually resort to more illegal immigration

Pick your poison,

Personal Best Regards:

Here are the problems as I see them. Unskilled immigrants, legal or illegal currently do much needed work that would otherwise either go undone, or employer would have to pay increased wages to attract labor. How many Americans do you know who would be interested in going From place to place, following the harvest to pick produce for minimum wage? Say goodbye to low prices for produce.
If only skilled workers are allowed in they will compete for jobs currently coveted by many Americans, which would cause those jobs to either be filled by immigrants, or the wages lowered by supply and demand. A majority of trump supporters do not understand these disruptive market forces and support any immigration ban mostly out of racial or religious bias. Further, illegal immigrants are ineligible for government social welfare benefits.

I still see no way to have an immigration policy in this country without bi partisan discussion and agreement.

Sure, whomever has control can pass single issue legislation....ban somebody, reduce immigration as a whole, build a wall, all of those are items for discussion in a comprehensive legislation that should be considered.

When it is done with the EO's for example, the next president can just sign a piece of paper and change it.

We need a national debate or discussion on this with everyone involved.

Both parties have pretty much shut out the other...that is just plain stupid from my point of view.

For 6 years or so, the Republicans let the Democratic minority in congress simply float, and now the Democrats are leaving the Republicans out to dry at every chance they can take.

We need the President to set the example......reach out...use the bully pulpit to get people talking. That is what leaders do.

I am telling you...this piece meal for political purposes will never work.

Originally Posted by Guest

Here are the problems as I see them. Unskilled immigrants, legal or illegal currently do much needed work that would otherwise either go undone, or employer would have to pay increased wages to attract labor. How many Americans do you know who would be interested in going From place to place, following the harvest to pick produce for minimum wage? Say goodbye to low prices for produce.

If only skilled workers are allowed in they will compete for jobs currently coveted by many Americans, which would cause those jobs to either be filled by immigrants, or the wages lowered by supply and demand. A majority of trump supporters do not understand these disruptive market forces and support any immigration ban mostly out of racial or religious bias. Further, illegal immigrants are ineligible for government social welfare benefits.

I guess it is worth repeating one more time that the proposed law is about permanent legal immigrants and is not about seasonal migrant farm workers who are allowed into the country to harvest crops, but are not on a path to citizenship. Seasonal migrant farm workers enter, legally, under a H-2A Visa.

There are two reasons for selecting English speaking immigrants with job skills, as the proposed law specifies.

1. One is that they do not go on welfare after they arrive, so do not swell our welfare rolls as many legal immigrants do now.

2. The other is that they do not displace our lowest wage earners, pushing these earners onto our welfare rolls.

Your concern about legal immigrants with job skills competing with our citizens with similar job skills is touching, but you have ignored that the plan is also to authorize half as many legal immigrants as is currently authorized. So this is more like a plan to replace retiring skilled workers rather than displacing those who are job seekers or currently employed.

Your remark about an "immigration ban" seems out of place in a thread discussing a proposed law on legal immigration, not a ban, and has a gratuitous smear about racial and religious bias.

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by Guest

I still see no way to have an immigration policy in this country without bi partisan discussion and agreement.

Sure, whomever has control can pass single issue legislation....ban somebody, reduce immigration as a whole, build a wall, all of those are items for discussion in a comprehensive legislation that should be considered.

When it is done with the EO's for example, the next president can just sign a piece of paper and change it.

We need a national debate or discussion on this with everyone involved.

Both parties have pretty much shut out the other...that is just plain stupid from my point of view.

For 6 years or so, the Republicans let the Democratic minority in congress simply float, and now the Democrats are leaving the Republicans out to dry at every chance they can take.

We need the President to set the example......reach out...use the bully pulpit to get people talking. That is what leaders do.

I am telling you...this piece meal for political purposes will never work.

This could be reposted for every issue that is brought up.

Originally Posted by Guest
There would be no MS-13 gang

Originally Posted by guest

There shouldn't be now either...how the hell do gangs get away with operating indiscriminately like they do? EVERYONE knows who they are...conduct a huge raid and clean them out. House by house rounding up gang members...until eventually, we get them all.

Originally Posted by Guest

These gangs are not a direct result of immigration. Their genisis is mostly economic, and we stopped addressing that.

I must disagree. Note that the thread of the conversation is not about gangs in general, but about MS-13.

Although reputedly being formed in Los Angeles, MS-13 arguably has roots in El Salvador. In fact the S in MS-13 stands for Salvador, and trucha, which translates roughly into street smarts. The gang was formed by immigrants who had fled El Salvador's long and brutal civil war. Other members came from Honduras, Guatemala and Mexico.

And now, with the end of the Obama administration, the new law enforcement emphasis on apprehending and deporting MS-13 members clearly discloses that the bulk of the members of this gang are in the United States due to illegal immigration.

If this were not true we would not be able to deport them.

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by guest

the specific question asked ( the thread's title) is

"analysis: Would the u.s. Benefit from a merit-based immigration system?" operative words would the us benefit

to begin with its my view that illegal immigration is well illegal and so i am against illegals entering the country,

secondly we are talking about today's america and not the america of our forefathers.

Third like any national issue there are competing voices

analysis. Trump's bill will cut immigrants coming to america because he restricts family immigration and proposes employer-sponsored green car point system

one benefit would be immigrants who come here speaking english and with the necessary life skills and employment which will be a benefit to employers and to taxpayers (twofold) because they will not have to support these immigrants and these immigrants become taxpayer

the downside is that by restricting legal immigration this bill may actually resort to more illegal immigration

pick your poison,

personal best regards:

Trump ****ing torch of Liberty.jpg

Originally Posted by Guest

Originally Posted by Guest
There would be no MS-13 gang




I must disagree. Note that the thread of the conversation is not about gangs in general, but about MS-13.

Although reputedly being formed in Los Angeles, MS-13 arguably has roots in El Salvador. In fact the S in MS-13 stands for Salvador, and trucha, which translates roughly into street smarts. The gang was formed by immigrants who had fled El Salvador's long and brutal civil war. Other members came from Honduras, Guatemala and Mexico.

And now, with the end of the Obama administration, the new law enforcement emphasis on apprehending and deporting MS-13 members clearly discloses that the bulk of the members of this gang are in the United States due to illegal immigration.

If this were not true we would not be able to deport them.

Carl in Tampa

You quote me partially without addressing my point and your quoting of me since it was selective, is out of context.

I am aware of the history of this gang, but my point on this issue is and remains.

We cannot simply BY EACH ADMINISTRATION submit EOs that fir our political position. You can do a lot with an EO and it lasts until the next administration.

We must have legislation, on a bi partisan basis that afpddresses this. It is not easy...I think Reagan once said about immigration.."tell me what to do and I will do it"...,it is damn hard.

I certainly do not oppose any actions being taken, and have tried to be clear on that, but it will last until a new party, or a new administration with different views.

EO's are a terrible way to run a country in any subject.

I simply suggest , nobody much looks at the economic conditions that allows these gangs to get a footing and to thrive. THAT needs to be addressed WITHIN A COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION bill, that addresses it within the confines of immigration.

We continue to chase our tail. We never, and since I sense an anti OBama vibe here, I am speaking of both his administration and Trump. My biggest complaint.....well....the President must understand he is President and not a candidate. He, any President is supposed to lead, and use his bully pulpit and the power of the office, not to continue to campaign but to reach out and bring sides together to solve the COUNTRY'S problems, not to continue campaign bashing.

That is why it is a hard job...That is why I speak of honesty and integrity. You must get people to trust you, ALL AMERICANS. If this job was easy...none of this matters, but it is hard. It is not as simple as being projected here.

Folks make this sound simple..it's not. None of this replaces a USA immigration policy and it seems to me we are not even working on one.

Maybe I am more correct than I thought when I say both parties have gone extreme and neither cares about anything but their party.

To those who slam government as if not needed, I will tell you...without NATIONAL legislation, we are doomed to swapping EO's, and not just immigration.

To address ms13, as you know, there is some activity in Tampa and I spent time on the streets speaking, not with hard core members, but others with the same economic and social problems. We keep ignoring that, we are doomed.

Originally Posted by Guest

You quote me partially without addressing my point and your quoting of me since it was selective, is out of context.

I am aware of the history of this gang, but my point on this issue is and remains.

We cannot simply BY EACH ADMINISTRATION submit EOs that fir our political position. You can do a lot with an EO and it lasts until the next administration.

We must have legislation, on a bi partisan basis that afpddresses this. It is not easy...I think Reagan once said about immigration.."tell me what to do and I will do it"...,it is damn hard.

I certainly do not oppose any actions being taken, and have tried to be clear on that, but it will last until a new party, or a new administration with different views.

EO's are a terrible way to run a country in any subject.

I simply suggest , nobody much looks at the economic conditions that allows these gangs to get a footing and to thrive. THAT needs to be addressed WITHIN A COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION bill, that addresses it within the confines of immigration.

We continue to chase our tail. We never, and since I sense an anti OBama vibe here, I am speaking of both his administration and Trump. My biggest complaint.....well....the President must understand he is President and not a candidate. He, any President is supposed to lead, and use his bully pulpit and the power of the office, not to continue to campaign but to reach out and bring sides together to solve the COUNTRY'S problems, not to continue campaign bashing.

That is why it is a hard job...That is why I speak of honesty and integrity. You must get people to trust you, ALL AMERICANS. If this job was easy...none of this matters, but it is hard. It is not as simple as being projected here.

Folks make this sound simple..it's not. None of this replaces a USA immigration policy and it seems to me we are not even working on one.

Maybe I am more correct than I thought when I say both parties have gone extreme and neither cares about anything but their party.

To those who slam government as if not needed, I will tell you...without NATIONAL legislation, we are doomed to swapping EO's, and not just immigration.

To address ms13, as you know, there is some activity in Tampa and I spent time on the streets speaking, not with hard core members, but others with the same economic and social problems. We keep ignoring that, we are doomed.

I didn't quote your entire earlier post because the point was the gang MS-13.

Addressing "economic factors" that leads to gang formation is irrelevant in the case of MS-13, because being illegal aliens, THEY DON'T BELONG HERE.

Getting rid of them IS NOT a matter of executive orders. It nèeds only the will to enforce EXISTING LAW.

By the way, "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" has become a code word for "amnesty for everyone who is now here illegally," which is unacceptable.

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by Guest

You quote me partially without addressing my point and your quoting of me since it was selective, is out of context.

I am aware of the history of this gang, but my point on this issue is and remains.

We cannot simply BY EACH ADMINISTRATION submit EOs that fir our political position. You can do a lot with an EO and it lasts until the next administration.

We must have legislation, on a bi partisan basis that afpddresses this. It is not easy...I think Reagan once said about immigration.."tell me what to do and I will do it"...,it is damn hard.

I certainly do not oppose any actions being taken, and have tried to be clear on that, but it will last until a new party, or a new administration with different views.

EO's are a terrible way to run a country in any subject.

I simply suggest , nobody much looks at the economic conditions that allows these gangs to get a footing and to thrive. THAT needs to be addressed WITHIN A COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION bill, that addresses it within the confines of immigration.

We continue to chase our tail. We never, and since I sense an anti OBama vibe here, I am speaking of both his administration and Trump. My biggest complaint.....well....the President must understand he is President and not a candidate. He, any President is supposed to lead, and use his bully pulpit and the power of the office, not to continue to campaign but to reach out and bring sides together to solve the COUNTRY'S problems, not to continue campaign bashing.

That is why it is a hard job...That is why I speak of honesty and integrity. You must get people to trust you, ALL AMERICANS. If this job was easy...none of this matters, but it is hard. It is not as simple as being projected here.

Folks make this sound simple..it's not. None of this replaces a USA immigration policy and it seems to me we are not even working on one.

Maybe I am more correct than I thought when I say both parties have gone extreme and neither cares about anything but their party.

To those who slam government as if not needed, I will tell you...without NATIONAL legislation, we are doomed to swapping EO's, and not just immigration.

To address ms13, as you know, there is some activity in Tampa and I spent time on the streets speaking, not with hard core members, but others with the same economic and social problems. We keep ignoring that, we are doomed.

I didn't quote your entire earlier post because the point was the gang MS-13.

Addressing "economic factors" that leads to gang formation is irrelevant in the case of MS-13, because being illegal aliens, THEY DON'T BELONG HERE.

Getting rid of them IS NOT a matter of executive orders. It nèeds only the will to enforce EXISTING LAW.

By the way, "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" has become a code word for "amnesty for everyone who is now here illegally," which is unacceptable.

Carl in Tampa

Originally Posted by Guest

I didn't quote your entire earlier post because the point was the gang MS-13.

Addressing "economic factors" that leads to gang formation is irrelevant in the case of MS-13, because being illegal aliens, THEY DON'T BELONG HERE.

Getting rid of them IS NOT a matter of executive orders. It nèeds only the will to enforce EXISTING LAW.

By the way, "Comprehensive Immigration Reform" has become a code word for "amnesty for everyone who is now here illegally," which is unacceptable.

Carl in Tampa

I advocate our leaders making a decision.

If they say, throw everyone out that is not a citizen or is here illegally, so be it.....while I find that economically unfeasible, so be it.

However, they wont and next President will issue Executive Orders to satisfy whatever he construes as his base, whether best for the country of not.

You totally misunderstand me on this. I guess I do not make sense but this circle j#@@ will continue forever if we don't find a leader. As I said, it has frustrated Presidents for years and years, and I never hear a reference to s744, which would NOT throw out all illegal immigrants so you will not agree.

I offer this just for information because the hard right and the hard left refuse to make any concessions and this problem will get worse not better over the years .

This is from an article about what we would look like had this bill not been ignored ........For example...

"First and foremost, the Senate bill would have put the vast majority of the 11.2 million unauthorized immigrants in the United States on a 13-year pathway to citizenship. Anyone who entered the country prior to January 1, 2012, who passed a background check, had not committed a serious crime, and paid fees and a fine could apply to gain registered provisional immigrant, or RPI, status. This is the first step toward permanent residency. Once they gained RPI status, immigrants would be free from the constant worry that they or their family members could be picked up by police, detained, and deported at any time; they also would have the ability to work legally. After 10 years with RPI status, they could adjust to permanent residency and, three years later, become citizens. The bill also included accelerated pathways to citizenship for DREAMers—young undocumented immigrants who came to the United States prior to age 16—and agricultural workers.



2 Years Later, Immigrants Are Still Waiting on Immigration Reform - Center for American Progress

This is obviously not acceptable to you or others. But I offer this for your consideration....

"“The economic contribution to U.S. GDP of the current unauthorized workers is substantial,” the researchers wrote. “Unauthorized workers may be responsible for 8 to 9 percent of the value-added in agriculture, construction, and leisure and hospitality.”

While that seems dire, the research comes with a major caveat: It assumes that workers from other segments of the economy wouldn’t take the jobs left vacant by the deported immigrants. It’s likely that some Americans and legal immigrants would take on those roles, shifting between industries and jobs to secure new opportunities, although it’s unclear how much appeal those vacant jobs would hold for legal and native-born workers.

Trump’s position on immigration has been formed by the view that undocumented workers are taking wages and jobs away from native-born and legal workers. But policy experts note that his focus on immigration comes at a time when the share of undocumented workers is declining. While the American labor force, comprised of people born in the U.S. or who immigrated legally, has expanded by 2.2 percent since 2009, the number of illegal immigrants has declined from 8.1 million to 8 million over the same time.

It’s also unclear whether unauthorized workers are taking jobs away from Americans. Even within the occupations with the largest shares of undocumented workers -- such as farm laborers, roofers and maintenance workers -- the majority of jobs are filled by native-born workers and legal immigrants. "



How would deporting undocumented workers affect the U.S. economy? - CBS News

The last estimate for cost for deporting all illegals I heard was in excess of 400 BILLION dollars in new spending.

While I agree....you already violated our law in getting here, you should go....but what you suggest is COSTLY and simplistic.

Do you not see any middle ground or do we simply round up illegals, who may have been here longer than you or I....and simply throw them out ?

By the way, I welcome and enjoy your conversations. I just wish you would broaden your skills to some of the REAL FAKE NEWS and such that permeate this forum. I welcome your defense of Trump on these issues, I love that kind of logical conversation but what sends me off are the lies and uncompromising FALSE defense of the office. I honestly am an American first......the kind of rhetoric on this forum and in many conversations is so far removed from reality and truth and while I am not feeling sorry for myself, I am tired of being called a dummy because I object to labeling of fellow american as if they were cattle and then maligning them as a group, or defending lies from the seat of our government and not just the WH.

So many millions of Republicans, conservative, Democrats, liberals, progressives are real patriots, and the differences in opinion on HOW is not something to be ashamed of or to back away from. I did not believe Goldwater when he said what he said about extremism and I so much fear the move in that direction from both the right and the left.

By the way, I had forgotten but recall the thought by Goldwater that I DID AGREE on....part of the same speech actually...

"We must not see malice in honest differences of opinion, and no matter how great, so long as they are not inconsistent with the pledges we have given to each other in and through our Constitution."