And for the sake of argument let us assume all can be 100% varified and valid.
There has been nothing presented in the proposals that address what will be fixed, specifically. It is one of the major stumbling blocks in the attempt(s) to put a price on the reform.

It is kind of like being convinced to go on a cruise. The selling points could be the past cruises problems were many....BUT....we have this new, improved cruise everybody is going to love....c'mon get on board....the ship is new and will depart "soon"....we don't have an itinerary yet, but don't worry you will really like it....we don't know how long the cruise will be as the details are not available yet, but not to worry you will like it....no, we don't know how much it will cost but that will not be a problem either because you will really like THIS cruise better than any cruise you have ever been on. And one other detail the cruise will have a slot for every American or anybody inside our borders....and should you elect to not take the cruise there will be an annual penalty to be paid with your income taxes....we don't know how much that will be yet, but not to worry we will let you know!!!!

All aboard!!!!!!!

btk

Factor: Government NEVER runs anything efficiently.

Factor: It always costs about 10 time more than they say it will.

Factor: Over a thousand pages and no one has even read it yet they want to ram it through in weeks. Why?

Factor: Hawaii government health care plan for children dismantled after only seven months. Total failure.

Factor: Massachusetts government health care plan. Total failure.

Factor: Medicare bankrupt.

Factor: Medicade bankrupt.

Factor: Social Security bankrupt.

Factor: 10 Trillion dollars in debt.

Factor: No way to pay for any of it.

Factor: It will KILL jobs which is something we need MOST right now.

Factor: 78% of people are happy with their current plan.

Factor: This has nothing do you with health care reform. It’s all to do with control and power over the American people.

Factor: Congress will NEVER subject themselves to the same plans they are trying to force on us.

Conclusion: Maybe you like your life controlled by the Federal Government.. most don't. Some of us still fight for freedom and fight against tyranny.

Originally Posted by ptownrob

Yes, I support a radical re-thinking of health care in America:

Honesty: We do NOT have the best healthcare system in the world- not even close, if you look at morbidity rates, percentage of individuals (citizens or other) who cannot afford even basc care, etc.

Honesty: We have among the BEST specialized health care services in the world. People come here from all over the world not to treat a sprained ankle or sore throat, but for the highly specialized treatments in which we excel.

Honesty: According to the Pew Foundation, 55% of all health care dollars are expended by 5% of the population. These are commonly terminal illnesses and geriatric illnesses. Illegal immigrants are not an issue.

Factor: Our pharmaceutical companies run rampant with high-costs. This is not an issue of what the "free market" will bear, since these medicines are held by monopolies, and real competition, as in overseas versions of the same drugs are prohibited for import. Thank you lobbyists & Congress.

Factor: Health insurance may have been "competitive" for larger employers at one time, but like all else in the recent orgy of non-regulation, now there are only two or three companies where many may have been involved before.
Blue Cross, United Health and others have had to pay BILLIONS in penalities for market-area price-fixing- not exactly a competitive spirit, is it?

Factor: We, as a culture, especially older folks, have been indoctrinated by religious forces and the medical industry, to think that: 1. We are invulnerable to death; 2. All conditions are curable, and, 3. most importantly, "Pulling the Plug" in any situation is murder (see T. Schiavo). I have worked in hospitals where families, usually older members, refused to allow their spouse to die with diginity under any cirsumstance, even when the sufferer is in great pain. The health care costs involved with this mentality have over-whelmed our system.

Factor: As long as the hospital can get reimbursed, they can continue these end-stage marathons when the family so chooses. The costs of this are passed on in dangerously high insurance hikes, which can create situations where the self-employed (ME!) cannot obtain insurance.

Factor: Although tort liability is becoming the law in may states (including Florida), malpractice insurance rates continue to skyrocket, some doctors won't even carry it, and there's no coherent or cost-effective system to protect good doctors or malpracticed patients.

Factor: The so-called insurance for the self-insured is oftentimes a scam, as described vividly by Consumer Reports last year about "Assurant Healthcare." These companies do not cover "pre-existing" illnesses. Big Problem.
In fact, these companies also write these policies for six months at a time. If you get sick in March, when your "new" policy kicks in in June, you now have a non-covered "pre-existing" illness. Bigger Problem. Solution, Pay big bucks to a lawyer to fight individually for your health care. Who's got that kind of money? I could worsen or die before the case is settled. I may not fall into an extreme enough case that warrants a legal battle, etc.

Example: I have suffered from chronic kidney stones for more than 30 years. With my good company-offered insurance in the past, I have been able to have every test under the sun, every dietary possibility explored, and have had once-miraculous, now routine, lithotropsy 3 times. Several times I've also had to go to the emergency room for pain relief and extraction. Good Enough.

But now, although I'm through with testing, etc., if I get a chronic attack, I cannot even find insurance that will cover that. Forget the "2 year rule." Doesn't apply to individual purchasers.

Example: Catastrophic Insurance? Cost for self-employed me? $890.00 a month! And it isn't even tax deductible- And I pay 1 & 1/2 times your social security taxes as well. Solution? I cannot find decent insurance, and cannot afford catastrophic insurance. So I pray I stay healthy, I use Walgreen's prescription program, and I avoid going to any doctors for any reason.

Ladies & Gentlemen- There's your health crisis. Between the obscenely profitable insurance industry, high costs of virtually all medical services and the monopoly of the drug lobby laws, and the cost of malpractice insurance to practitioners, the old "go slow and ignore it" mentality is going to crush individuals AND the country.

Conclusion: If you notice the PBS Insurance chart, one very telling factor about health care is that on 1.2% of seniors don't have health insurance. Why? Medicare and Medicaid of course. But what if a coherent system could be put in place that cuts costs, makes efficient use of resources, limits tort issues, helps to prevent illnesses through preventative care, and the like. So WHAT if it's operated by the government!? Is the private sector really doing such a great job?

Spiraling costs and deficient health care have been issues since Harry Truman was president. Government employees and the military have benefitted from government-run health plans for centuries.

If you hear someone taunting with the words "socialism" or "loss of choice" or "boondoggle" you are listening to the people who would really rather spin a lie tham acknowledge that a major part of our government's responsibility to ensure that all Americans have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is to keep people alive.

For once, just once, please don't assume that the vitriole of radio talk hosts and politicians, interested more in creating a political Waterloo than in creating workable health care system, are interested in anything remotely discussing the common good for all Americans.

The problem with our health care system is that health care, as an industry, keeps growing while the rest of the economy has stalled. All of the "fixes" in the world won't change the fact that health care does not have foreign competition inthe domestic market, while virtually every other industry fights day to day (and often loses) to survive. Political "silver bullets" rarely kill anything, except our pocketbooks. So the thought that just because "the government" is going to do anything just doesn't mean anything will be better.

The CBO report on HR 3200 (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10464/hr3200.pdf) is as non-biased as it gets, and it says the numbers are askew, especially the public-perceived cost effect that medical malpractice has on health care costs. No medical association has rebutted the numbers, leading to the belief that the CBO's assessment is correct.

When I had my own business, I too paid about $1,000/mo for family health care and the employer's contribution to Social Security. That goes with the turf when you are your own boss.

I agree with you that it is strange the drug companies can sell their products almost everywhere else in the world for significantly lower prices. It has the hefty aroma of price-fixing monopoly-style, yet no Attorney General for as long as I can remember has ever disclosed if this phenomena has ever been investigated as a "Sherman Act" violation. If Mr. Holder would care to pursue this issue, his popularity would increase.

Let us not kid ourselves on how long it will take to implement any new system nationally, regardless of what it looks like. No matter what the statute says, regulation-writing takes a significant amount of labor, public review and comment, revision and posting. Right now, there is no labor to do that. Acquiring the labor, by contract or federal employees or both, will take a few months based on preparing the personnel warrants, interviewing, screening, getting on -the-job, finding places for them to sit, getting office materials, and that's just to get the regulations written. The comes setting up the field offices to administer, hiring and training more folk (in the thousands!), new forms (that's a thrill to create!), and the list goes on. We are talking about YEARS before any new system trying to be fielded nationally can even work halfway right.

Congress and the Administration are trying to give the impression that they are heroes with the passage of legislation - unfunded legislation at that! Any statute is only step-one of one hundred. Yet, the public will see the confetti being thrown like a miracle has happened, and expect it all to be working in a week or so. Projection (mine): After any statute is passed 2 /12 years before regulations of substance (and only some of many) will be fielded; another year to two before the complaint process (adjudication of claims, set-up of administrative courts and special hearings, etc) works, and that will have docket backlogs spanning many months; for the first 5 years, the contractor-to-employee ratio will be 2:1 at best (and contractors won't have any authority to settle complaints). In the meantime, the costs to set up all of this (new agencies, logos, documents, facilities, people, training, IT system conversions and interfacing, court battles) will reign supreme. Compared to this, establishing the Department of Homeland Security was child's play!

I have to hand it to Canada. They had the good sense to make it work in one province first, and then other provinces came onboard one-at-a-time. We, in our arrogance, want to just blast forward nationally and hope for the best. Does that REALLY make sense?

Before discussing the us healthcare issues it would be wise to
learn some facts.
For example to say that there are americans without healthcare is wrong. Everyone in america has healthcare. However, some do not have health insurance for a number of reasons.

I am a proponent of one state at a time. Let us start in Massachusetts. If they can turn around this quagmire in my state (hopefully for not long) I will be less skeptic and maybe be a supporter. I think Missouri's "Show Me" motto is appropriate here. Show me how it works in Massachusetts.

Originally Posted by SteveZ

The problem with our health care system is that health care, as an industry, keeps growing while the rest of the economy has stalled. All of the "fixes" in the world won't change the fact that health care does not have foreign competition inthe domestic market, while virtually every other industry fights day to day (and often loses) to survive. Political "silver bullets" rarely kill anything, except our pocketbooks. So the thought that just because "the government" is going to do anything just doesn't mean anything will be better.

The CBO report on HR 3200 (http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/104xx/doc10464/hr3200.pdf) is as non-biased as it gets, and it says the numbers are askew, especially the public-perceived cost effect that medical malpractice has on health care costs. No medical association has rebutted the numbers, leading to the belief that the CBO's assessment is correct.

When I had my own business, I too paid about $1,000/mo for family health care and the employer's contribution to Social Security. That goes with the turf when you are your own boss.

I agree with you that it is strange the drug companies can sell their products almost everywhere else in the world for significantly lower prices. It has the hefty aroma of price-fixing monopoly-style, yet no Attorney General for as long as I can remember has ever disclosed if this phenomena has ever been investigated as a "Sherman Act" violation. If Mr. Holder would care to pursue this issue, his popularity would increase.

Let us not kid ourselves on how long it will take to implement any new system nationally, regardless of what it looks like. No matter what the statute says, regulation-writing takes a significant amount of labor, public review and comment, revision and posting. Right now, there is no labor to do that. Acquiring the labor, by contract or federal employees or both, will take a few months based on preparing the personnel warrants, interviewing, screening, getting on -the-job, finding places for them to sit, getting office materials, and that's just to get the regulations written. The comes setting up the field offices to administer, hiring and training more folk (in the thousands!), new forms (that's a thrill to create!), and the list goes on. We are talking about YEARS before any new system trying to be fielded nationally can even work halfway right.

Congress and the Administration are trying to give the impression that they are heroes with the passage of legislation - unfunded legislation at that! Any statute is only step-one of one hundred. Yet, the public will see the confetti being thrown like a miracle has happened, and expect it all to be working in a week or so. Projection (mine): After any statute is passed 2 /12 years before regulations of substance (and only some of many) will be fielded; another year to two before the complaint process (adjudication of claims, set-up of administrative courts and special hearings, etc) works, and that will have docket backlogs spanning many months; for the first 5 years, the contractor-to-employee ratio will be 2:1 at best (and contractors won't have any authority to settle complaints). In the meantime, the costs to set up all of this (new agencies, logos, documents, facilities, people, training, IT system conversions and interfacing, court battles) will reign supreme. Compared to this, establishing the Department of Homeland Security was child's play!

I have to hand it to Canada. They had the good sense to make it work in one province first, and then other provinces came onboard one-at-a-time. We, in our arrogance, want to just blast forward nationally and hope for the best. Does that REALLY make sense?

Your ideas and proposals make good sense to me!! We've wasted so many years allowing this juggernaut to happen- it's the perfect storm of government complacency and collusion with corporate greed and blatant amorality.

Time is running out financially for both federal programs and for the ability of private corporations to offer affordable policies and still remain profitable or retain employees. Let's not forget the self-employed while we're at it too.

As long as "go slow/be thorough" does not mean a "Waterloo gotcha" or refusal to do anything, let's work for the best program possible for all Americans- let's get it right

Originally Posted by ptownrob

Your ideas and proposals make good sense to me!! We've wasted so many years allowing this juggernaut to happen- it's the perfect storm of government complacency and collusion with corporate greed and blatant amorality.

Time is running out financially for both federal programs and for the ability of private corporations to offer affordable policies and still remain profitable or retain employees. Let's not forget the self-employed while we're at it too.

As long as "go slow/be thorough" does not mean a "Waterloo gotcha" or refusal to do anything, let's work for the best program possible for all Americans- let's get it right

So you think it is the government's responsibility to have a program for all?
And what kind of track record does our government have on programs?
Seems to me that our government programs have put us so deep in the hole that we will never dig our way out.

There must be a way to use our free enterprise system to make things work. Why would anybody in their right mind dismantle a system that 90% of the people are happy with?

Originally Posted by LORNEOLSEN

It is easy to tell who knows the facts about health care in america and who is taking a position based on a bias.

When you debate your political biases please understand this one basic fact: There are people living in america who do not have health insurance for many reasons. However, there is not one person without medical care available to them.

I was an executive directer of a medical center. We could not and did not refuse our full sevices to anyone. We gave these services
even when the patient had no money, no id's , or could not speak englih.

When you say millions of americans are without medical care you just not know your country.

The emergency room of the US are inundated with people without health insurance every day. Who pays for this free service? We all do, either through higher premiums for those with insurance or all of us through taxes. I have insurance, like 85% of the country, so I pay both higher premiums and higher taxes!

Originally Posted by BobKat1

Up 93% in two years! Yikes!

Don't you love having to cover the costs of "free" care through your higher premiums? And, you I'm sure that you "want" to do your civic duty and cover all those who aren't legally in our country, don't want to spend their money on insurance, or incapable of holding a job that offers insurance?

Originally Posted by Keedy

So you think it is the government's responsibility to have a program for all?...

In this situation, yes. The cost of healthcare is growing at an unsustainable rate--four times the rate of inflation. And more and more Americans are finding that they either can't afford or don't have health insurance every day. There are varying estimates, but the number may be as many as 40 million. That's almost criminal for a society who wants to consider itself the richest, kindest, fairest and most sophisticated in the world. It looks to me like the government is the only party that has a chance to correct the problem.

Originally Posted by Keedy

...And what kind of track record does our government have on programs?...

Well, about 40% of Americans have Medicare as their primary healthcare insurer. Given the complaints here that the proposed healthcare legislation will "change" Medicare, it sounds like those that have it are pretty satisfied with the government-provided and government-administered Medicare insurance. I might also point out that the government provides the primary healthcare insurance for my wife and I at a cost that's about 1/3 of what my secondary insurance company charges me for their secondary coverage. My friends with Veteran's Administration hospitalization and prescription drug insurance seem even happier than the Medicare folks. But then, the government isn't trying to make a profit like the insurance companies operating under the free enterprise system.

Originally Posted by Keedy

...There must be a way to use our free enterprise system to make things work...

I hate to point this out to you, but it has been the free enterprise system that's gotten us into this mess. It's the free enterprise system that has proven for years that it is incapable of providing top quality healthcare at a reasonable cost.

I know it's really tough to try to tear the idea that "the free enterprise system is best" from your cold dead hand, but IT HASN'T WORKED. It hasn't worked in much the same way that it didn't work with regard to the mortgage mess that has dropped us all into the worst recession in almost 100 years.

Do I think the free markets are the best economic system over the long haul? Absolutely! But the people who ran the businesses and banks and the government under the free enterprise system for the last 20-30 years have gotten things so screwed up--as the result of their greed and singular self-interest-- that a different approach is needed to stop the bleeding and get the patient off life support. Maybe then we can go back to the free enterprise system with somewhat more knowledge on how to run it the right way.

I hate to point this out to you, but it has been the free enterprise system that's gotten us into this mess. It's the free enterprise system that has proven for years that it is incapable of providing top quality healthcare at a reasonable cost.

What????

I think that's total bull pucky. It's free enterprise that's given the the greatest health care not to mention health care technology in the world.

It's government meddling, regulation, interference, corruption and plain incompetence that's mostly responsible, not the free market. That's just ridicules, and to suggest that government is the only one that has a chance to fix it is even more absurd.

Health care in America isn't broken. There's an insurance problem among other things that needs to be addressed. The government fix it? What a joke!!

God almighty.

Do I think the free markets are the best economic system over the long haul? Absolutely! But the people who ran the businesses and banks and the government under the free enterprise system for the last 20-30 years have gotten things so screwed up--as the result of their greed and singular self-interest-- that a different approach is needed to stop the bleeding and get the patient off life support. Maybe then we can go back to the free enterprise system with somewhat more knowledge on how to run it the right way.

You mean the free enterprise system that we have been using for over 230 years? It has had it's up and downs (like a marriage) but I would never want to abandon it.
You want to try socialism and then come back to capitalism? What kind of parallel type world are you living in?
I just watched a program on the Veterans Health program that is run by government bureaucracy. You want the government to run a system for over 300 million people? Man...you haven't seen broke yet!!!!!!!

I just don't get some folks logic. Is basic common sense really dead in America?

Originally Posted by dklassen

What????

I think that's total bull pucky. It's free enterprise that's given the the greatest health care not to mention health care technology in the world.

It's government meddling, regulation, interference, corruption and plain incompetence that's mostly responsible, not the free market. That's just ridicules, and to suggest that government is the only one that has a chance to fix it is even more absurd.

Health care in America isn't broken. There's an insurance problem among other things that needs to be addressed. The government fix it? What a joke!!

God almighty.

Here Here! The Government is MORE broken than health care and some expect the Government can fix it??

Your absolutely right. What's really broken is any shred of common sense, moral decency, fiscal responsibility and the basic ability to tell the truth. What's broken is government and it blows my mind that so many put their faith in government for our solutions. Simply unbelievable.