Originally Posted by skyguy79

Let's see!

The beliefs/morality you speak of orginated in 1973 with the landmark decision in Roe vs. Wade.
The beliefs/morality Catholics have are centuries old.

You say the church is forcing their morality on everybody.
The church is only exercising their freedom of religion rights.

You imply the church prevents you and others from exercising your rights.
The church cannot prevent you or anybody from excersing your rights... elsewhere.

Whose trying to force their beliefs on others?
It sure ain't the church, by a long shot. That's for sure!

I am a pretty live and let live person...I am not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone...I am trying to protect mine. The church can make as many rules as they like for their followers. But that is as far as the rules should go. And come on, people follow the rules they like and break the ones they don't and get very creative in their reasons why they are exempt. That is human nature. There is no way around that.

SkyGuy,

What percentage of Catholic women use birth control of some kind - yet that is forbidden by the Catholic Church? Since the Middle Ages, Catholics have used some form of birth control (except Rick Santorum, obviously).

CeeJay and others have indicated that even though they are Catholic, they and their priests have said their own decisions are between them and God. Keep government OUT of the woman's right to choose!

Like Ladydoc has stated, are YOU willing to provide all the means of support for a child that cannot be cared for? From some of your previous posts, I think the answer is NO. I might be mistaken on that but keep it to yourself.

According to the tenets of the Catholic Church, any form of birth control is a sin. The Pope even preached that in Africa recently. How archaiac can a person be?

I do not think the government should force a woman to have a child if she does not want it. It is a woman's own personal choice. Let it be.

No, I do not want to hear "abortion is murder". It is not - so do not say it. Roe vs Wade made abortion legal. Case closed.

Originally Posted by djplong

Richie: I hope we can keep this civil. But let me outline where I think we agree and disagree a little.

You believe in "it's a child at conception"? Honest question - but that's what I'm led to understand based on your posts. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The equivalent of my belief is - at that moment - it's a blueprint. It's a single-cell organism that has the possibility to become a child - and there are a lot of things working against it before you get to things like abortions and IUDs.

By the same token, the idea of walking into some clinic when you're practically at term for an abortion (which pretty much doesn't happen because every state has restrictions on late-term abortions - which Roe v. Wade allows) is repugnant to me.

I've had to clean up the results of a miscarriage. And that's as graphic as I hope to get on this subject. I'd be lying if I said that didn't influence my opinions.

The overwhelming percentage of abortions are done in the first trimester - usually in the 2nd month. Pro-lifers will try to point out there there could be a beating heart later in that trimester. Pro-choicers will point out that it's a single-chamber heart (less developed than a frog's) and that, on sight, you wouldn't be able to visually tell the difference between a human and chicken embryo. ...and so begins the politicizing, the shouting, screaming, protesting, etc, etc.

I see reasons why couples (or single women for that matter) could be forced by situation into later term abortions. Anencephaly, Tay-Sachs - things like that. At that point, I have a disconnect with more social conservatives who would not only ban such abortions but also don't want to pay for the extraordinary health care costs that SOMEONE will have to pay if these go to term. I don't mean to be snarky, but not everyone has a Senator's health care plan.

I won't argue that some are careless and "callously" discard what they're carrying, whether you consider it a child or even only potential. But, in my experience, it's not always like that. In fact, in my experience, it's a VERY serious decision. And, yes, I've been confronted with it personally. When you have to make that decision. WHaen you're barely scraping by and you just discovered that the treatments you just had that ran all kinds of radiation through you were done when you didn't know that you were just a couple days pregnant.. When the doctor tells you what the odds are. Well, let's say that you have some SERIOUS thinking to do.

And, staying on that personal note, we DID have another child afterwards when things were a LOT more stable. Our 2nd daughter was planned, wanted, loved and is now in college working her tail off to pay tuition.

I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that it's more than the slogans thrown around on both sides. ABortion isn't the disease - it's the symptom. You get a better way of preventing unwanted pregnancies and you'll "cure" abortion. I will agree with you in one area where I *think* we agree. Every child should be wanted and loved.

djplong~ Here's a scenario for you...You are a single lady who has been told that she will never be able to conceive. You have known your fiance for 5 years when you find out that you are indeed pregnant. Happily you inform the fiance that the impossible has now become possible. He sternly informs you that he doesn't want children and begins to write the check to "take care" of this...ie, get the abortion. After you refuse, he walks out of your life. You have no parents left in your life to assist you, and it is in an era where unwed pregnancies are not the norm yet. Yet some raw, primal, instinct deep inside of you (and inside every woman) KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person inside of you, is JUST THAT-A PERSON!!! So....you pick yourself up by the boot straps as you were raised to do, you carry this innocent life to completion. You struggle to make ends meet and give this child the best life has to offer. She grows up to be a beautiful, intelligent woman with 5 children of her own-to whom she is a wonderful mother. You do all of this because it is the right thing to do, because we are civilized humans not barbarians, because greater love has no man than to lay down his life for another...
I am that woman, so don't give us that selfish "life was tough at that moment" garbage. We can accomplish great feats of love, when we CHOOSE to. It ain't always easy, but it is ALWAYS worth it!

Katz,
Good for you. Your mother made a choice. She had a choice. The Republicans including Santorum and Romney do NOT want a woman to have a choice. Roe vs Wade is the law of the land. Women do have a choice. Keep it that way.

Originally Posted by buggyone

Katz,
Good for you. Your mother made a choice. She had a choice. The Republicans including Santorum and Romney do NOT want a woman to have a choice. Roe vs Wade is the law of the land. Women do have a choice. Keep it that way.

Apparently, my mother wasn't a barbarian either. There never was a choice to be made as far as she was concerned, because LIFE BEGINS @ CONCEPTION. When this selfish generation wakes up to this fact, maybe they will be able to be BLESSED by CHOOSING LIFE, TOO.

Originally Posted by buggyone

SkyGuy,

What percentage of Catholic women use birth control of some kind - yet that is forbidden by the Catholic Church? Since the Middle Ages, Catholics have used some form of birth control (except Rick Santorum, obviously).

CeeJay and others have indicated that even though they are Catholic, they and their priests have said their own decisions are between them and God. Keep government OUT of the woman's right to choose!

Like Ladydoc has stated, are YOU willing to provide all the means of support for a child that cannot be cared for? From some of your previous posts, I think the answer is NO. I might be mistaken on that but keep it to yourself.

According to the tenets of the Catholic Church, any form of birth control is a sin. The Pope even preached that in Africa recently. How archaiac can a person be?

I do not think the government should force a woman to have a child if she does not want it. It is a woman's own personal choice. Let it be.

No, I do not want to hear "abortion is murder". It is not - so do not say it. Roe vs Wade made abortion legal. Case closed.

Seems to me that you are just talkin....but skirting the real issue here.

It makes NO difference how many Catholics abide by the law of the church....the issue, to me is the Federal Government interfering in religious exercise, whether you like it or not. We have made concessions to the Muslim faith for years but in this case, the only thing getting the administrations attention is the fear of political repercussions.

The message is keep the government out of religion.

Note the ONLY chagrin from this administration is the political chaos caused. This health bill, unless repealed 100% is going to be an anchor on this country, especially financially for a long long time.

Originally Posted by buggyone

SkyGuy,

What percentage of Catholic women use birth control of some kind - yet that is forbidden by the Catholic Church? Since the Middle Ages, Catholics have used some form of birth control (except Rick Santorum, obviously).

CeeJay and others have indicated that even though they are Catholic, they and their priests have said their own decisions are between them and God. Keep government OUT of the woman's right to choose!

Like Ladydoc has stated, are YOU willing to provide all the means of support for a child that cannot be cared for? From some of your previous posts, I think the answer is NO. I might be mistaken on that but keep it to yourself.

According to the tenets of the Catholic Church, any form of birth control is a sin. The Pope even preached that in Africa recently. How archaiac can a person be?

I do not think the government should force a woman to have a child if she does not want it. It is a woman's own personal choice. Let it be.

No, I do not want to hear "abortion is murder". It is not - so do not say it. Roe vs Wade made abortion legal. Case closed.

All this talk and all these false assumptions and the unmitigated gall, the hubris to presume to preach to the Holy Father.

This is about forcing the Catholic Church to do something against it's teachings. Talking about Catholic women who stray from this teaching is pointless and absurd.

You the guy who loves to talk about separation of church and state in the past. Here you go, put up or shut up about your view on that.

Like my good friend, Bucco, says, "The message is keep the government out of religion." This is true as is the converse, "Keep religion out of government."

Case closed.

Originally Posted by buggyone

Like my good friend, Bucco, says, "The message is keep the government out of religion." This is true as is the converse, "Keep religion out of government."

Case closed.

.......and keep government the heck out of religion


Case closed.

(gee, does that ever work, Buggy?)

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

djplong~ Here's a scenario for you...You are a single lady who has been told that she will never be able to conceive. You have known your fiance for 5 years when you find out that you are indeed pregnant. Happily you inform the fiance that the impossible has now become possible. He sternly informs you that he doesn't want children and begins to write the check to "take care" of this...ie, get the abortion. After you refuse, he walks out of your life. You have no parents left in your life to assist you, and it is in an era where unwed pregnancies are not the norm yet. Yet some raw, primal, instinct deep inside of you (and inside every woman) KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person inside of you, is JUST THAT-A PERSON!!! So....you pick yourself up by the boot straps as you were raised to do, you carry this innocent life to completion. You struggle to make ends meet and give this child the best life has to offer. She grows up to be a beautiful, intelligent woman with 5 children of her own-to whom she is a wonderful mother. You do all of this because it is the right thing to do, because we are civilized humans not barbarians, because greater love has no man than to lay down his life for another...
I am that woman, so don't give us that selfish "life was tough at that moment" garbage. We can accomplish great feats of love, when we CHOOSE to. It ain't always easy, but it is ALWAYS worth it!

God Bless your mom, Katz...and God Bless both of mine.

There is a second scenario.

A young woman, 17 years old, finds herself pregnant back in the day. She is aware of the shame that would bring upon herself and her family.

She, too, realized that this was a loving being growing inside of her and decides to have the baby and put it up for adoption.

It turns out that she has twins...and now has to unselfishly give up two babies..a boy and a girl. I'm sure that was probably twice as hard.

I am that girl baby...I was given to a loving couple who were unable to have children. They also took my brother...thank God they didn't separate us.

Had she had an abortion...well, I wouldn't be here and neither would my brother...

I thank God everyday for both my mothers...

Originally Posted by buggyone

SkyGuy,

CeeJay and others have indicated that even though they are Catholic, they and their priests have said their own decisions are between them and God. Keep government OUT of the woman's right to choose!

You sure like to twist things the way that you want to hear them.

I worked for a Catholic School for 13 years. It was just a given that birth control was not offered through my insurance...I totally understood and was fine with it.

I bought my own birth control pills and never had a problem with it.

The government has absolutely no right to interfere and no right to be "in a woman's uterus".

This was my original post in a different thread..."Here we go again".

I never said "Keep government OUT of the woman's right to choose".

I said "The government has absolutely no right to interfere..." meaning
KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT....PERIOD.

Please do not take my words out of context.

Originally Posted by buggyone

Like my good friend, Bucco, says, "The message is keep the government out of religion." This is true as is the converse, "Keep religion out of government."

Case closed.

You absolutely distort everything to fit your world. I sure wish that I was as intelligent as you think you are !!!

I might add that referring to me as your "good friend" is as much a stretch as having you respond to any post with facts and common sense. I am not, and will not ever be your "good friend"

And once again, referring to another post...you implied the Washington Times hid their ownership..please validate your accusation ! Secondly, please explain the reason for your thread in the first place. You keep running away from that.

I think what we have here is a FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE. The fact of the matter is when you take away accountability, greed, selfishness and fear, we are all very much alike in the way we think. My goodness are we not all human beings? Now lets everyone admit that they are not perfect and then we can start to agree on a few things first, then a lot of things.

Originally Posted by The Villager II

I think what we have here is a FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE. The fact of the matter is when you take away accountability, greed, selfishness and fear, we are all very much alike in the way we think. My goodness are we not all human beings? Yes, I may very well be more in tune with reality than the majority of posters on this forum, but even I can make mistakes. Now lets everyone admit that they are not perfect and then we can start to agree on a few things first, then a lot of things.

Ya' know...maybe if you had left out this sentence...what you are saying would make sense.

I think you blew it.

Originally Posted by ceejay

Ya' know...maybe if you had left out this sentence...what you are saying would make sense.

I think you blew it.

I know, but it is hard not to be sarcastic when talking to sarcastic people. I will edit that line out of my post. Thanks for the suggestion CeeJay