Originally Posted by samhass

This is a disheartening thread. Let's go back to discussing flip flops. I've heard they are bad for your feet. Causes the arches to fall and all that.

I used to think that flip flops were ugly, bad for your feet, and inherently dangerous, especially in a land of escalators. However, after studying a report from the Association of Trial Lawyers and Ambulance Chasers, my position is somewhat evolving. I expect to issue a formal position paper sooner rather than later.

I just ordered a pair of Crocs :#1: flip flops from the net cause they felt so good when I tried my buddies on. Is this bad too? ??? Can I change my mind about them? :dontknow:

Originally Posted by golfpro

What I don't understand is all the criticism still going on now. Somebody made a comment the other day about whiners. I think I agree ! As for me, I'm going to count my blessings.

I don't agree with the comment that people who criticize or in effect 'disagree' are whiners. If the citizens of this country hadn't 'whined' about the war in VietNam, we would have been much longer in getting out of there. I think it is the good citizen who makes his/her views known.

Originally Posted by Lil Dancer

I don't agree with the comment that people who criticize or in effect 'disagree' are whiners. If the citizens of this country hadn't 'whined' about the war in VietNam, we would have been much longer in getting out of there. I think it is the good citizen who makes his/her views known.

If there wasn't as much 'whining,' Vietnam would have ended sooner as the 'whining' gave Gen. Giap and his political leadership the confidence to hold on despite enormous losses. The 'whiners' may have thought they saved lives, but actually cost us more. They will never believe it, only because they don't want to even consider what kept the North Vietnamese and their allies willing to endure - and that was American impatience. Not recognizing the difference in Occidental versus Oriental viewpoints at the time probably caused the impatience. Gen. Giap's memoirs tell the story.

Citizens have the right to express their opinions, and should in a truly free society. However, free speech, just like any other freedom, is not free. At some point - before or after - someone pays for it.

Originally Posted by SteveZ

If there wasn't as much 'whining,' Vietnam would have ended sooner as the 'whining' gave Gen. Giap and his political leadership the confidence to hold on despite enormous losses. The 'whiners' may have thought they saved lives, but actually cost us more. They will never believe it, only because they don't want to even consider what kept the North Vietnamese and their allies willing to endure - and that was American impatience. Not recognizing the difference in Occidental versus Oriental viewpoints at the time probably caused the impatience. Gen. Giap's memoirs tell the story.

Citizens have the right to express their opinions, and should in a truly free society. However, free speech, just like any other freedom, is not free. At some point - before or after - someone pays for it.

I am not one who will tell a person who risked his or her life to serve this nation that they did anything wrong when the only thing they were doing was placing their faith and trust in the nation and the people in control of it at the time. With that said, the reason that they 'held on' for so long is because they were defending their home against an unjustified foreign invader that wanted to defend a form of government that the majority of poor citizens (which was the 'majority') did not support. I thought it was now common consensus that we were in the wrong in that war.

I pose one question for you. If china invaded the United States with troops on the ground, how long would you fight, or how much would you have to lose before 'you' gave up. You bet your but that they would have to kill me before I would stop defending this nation. I wonder why pro-US expansion people think that non-Americans are so different. Even when the Soviet Union ended, did people all of a sudden create new nations? No, they went back to their former national identities. The only way Israelis are able to live in Palestine is to force the Palestinian people into the corners of Palestine. The entire problem we have in the Middle East is a result from Europe going into the Ottoman Empire after WWI and imposing artificial borders that did not respect tribal borders.

If you wanted to win in Vietnam, or if you want to win in Iraq, there is only one way to do it, and a good history lesson in the US on the way we won against the Native Americans spells it out. When the first European stepped foot on this soil, there were more people living here than there was living in Europe. We were able to eliminate (some on purpose, many from diseases that traveled coast to coast decades before we did) 95% of them. The remaining few were herded into wastelands that were called reservations or sent to prisons in Florida. Humans have a natural desire for self determination and though it can sometimes take a little time, they will NOT be ruled by occupiers. We would have had to kill everyone in Vietnam to win that war.

I would like to point out one last thing about whiners. There are a few really famous ones that I think ought to always be mentioned: George Read, Caesar Rodney, Thomas McKean, George Clymer, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Morris, John Morton, Benjamin Rush, George Ross, James Smith, James Wilson, George Taylor, John Adams, Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Lewis Morris, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, William Floyd, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton, Richard Henry Lee, Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Jefferson, George Wythe, Thomas Nelson, Jr., William Hooper, John Penn, Joseph Hewes, Edward Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, Thomas Lynch, Jr., Thomas Heyward, Jr., Abraham Clark, John Hart, Francis Hopkinson, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Samuel Huntington, Roger Sherman, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott, Charles Carroll, Samuel Chase, Thomas Stone, and William Paca.

But, I guess that we would have been far better off if these 'liberal thinkers' didn't have the nerve and audacity to whine about their government. It would have been better if they would have been good little boys and supported their government in everything that they did. Isn't the conservative motto, "My country, right or wrong." Yeah, I am glad that some people in this nation know how to think for themselves instead of listening to drug addicted talk radio hosts.

Originally Posted by jeckyl

....With that said, the reason that they 'held on' for so long is because they were defending their home against an unjustified foreign invader that wanted to defend a form of government that the majority of poor citizens (which was the 'majority') did not support. I thought it was now common consensus that we were in the wrong in that war.

Apparently, I'm not part that "common" population. Why the war went as long as it did is subject to many interpretations. Mine can be found at http://www.geocities.com/matlock.cvma

Originally Posted by jeckyl

I pose one question for you. If china invaded the United States with troops on the ground, how long would you fight, or how much would you have to lose before 'you' gave up. You bet your but that they would have to kill me before I would stop defending this nation. I wonder why pro-US expansion people think that non-Americans are so different. Even when the Soviet Union ended, did people all of a sudden create new nations? No, they went back to their former national identities. The only way Israelis are able to live in Palestine is to force the Palestinian people into the corners of Palestine. The entire problem we have in the Middle East is a result from Europe going into the Ottoman Empire after WWI and imposing artificial borders that did not respect tribal borders.

On the main point we are in agreement. on the "pro-US expansion" folk , I'm not sure who these people are. If they are elected folk, and they keep getting elected, then the condition relates to the voters.

Originally Posted by jeckyl

If you wanted to win in Vietnam, or if you want to win in Iraq, there is only one way to do it,.....

Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea and a few more like them were and are not "Winnable Wars" in the same context as WWI or WWII. Again, please check the website referenced above.

Originally Posted by jeckyl

I would like to point out one last thing about whiners. There are a few really famous ones that I think ought to always be mentioned: George Read, Caesar Rodney, Thomas McKean, George Clymer, Benjamin Franklin, Robert Morris, John Morton, Benjamin Rush, George Ross, James Smith, James Wilson, George Taylor, John Adams, Samuel Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Lewis Morris, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, William Floyd, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton, Richard Henry Lee, Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Jefferson, George Wythe, Thomas Nelson, Jr., William Hooper, John Penn, Joseph Hewes, Edward Rutledge, Arthur Middleton, Thomas Lynch, Jr., Thomas Heyward, Jr., Abraham Clark, John Hart, Francis Hopkinson, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Samuel Huntington, Roger Sherman, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott, Charles Carroll, Samuel Chase, Thomas Stone, and William Paca.

I don't think I could classify any of the above as "whiners." People who say what they mean, mean what they say, and back their words with actions, knowing full well that the actions may very well result in severe risk, pain and possibly the ultimate sacrifice - they are not "whiners" at all. "Whiners" are the lily-livered folk who complain about things, do not back their words with responsible actions, and if they act at all, it is to seek publicity while harming or insulting others. Case in point would be those sweethearts I remember spitting at me, and those with me, at San Francisco Airport after returning from Vietnam, as well as those “patriots” who thought war protest meant flinging bags of dog dung at cars with military stickers as the cars, driven by soldiers, their wives and others, drove down certain streets.

The names you listed were people of courage and conviction – not “whiners” at all. Without their dedication and foresight, there would not have been a USA.

Originally Posted by jeckyl

…Isn't the conservative motto, "My country, right or wrong."

Don’t know about conservatives, but it is mine. I have to accept that any country made of humans will have human frailties, and will make mistakes. The kicker is accepting that “wrong” happens and using all means, especially the legal ones which includes the ballot box, to mitigate mistakes. This is my country, and I am very proud of it and all of the good it has done on this planet. The “rights” have outweighed the “wrongs” many times over, and I’ve seen this country bend over backwards to make right the things that have gone wrong, whether from American actions or those of others.

Originally Posted by jeckyl

..Yeah, I am glad that some people in this nation know how to think for themselves instead of listening to drug addicted talk radio hosts.

Agree. People keep forgetting that Rush Limbaugh, Randi Rhodes, Sean Hannity, Mark Levine and many many others are entertainers who rely on ratings to sell commercials. They say what they say to create an audience, and the bigger the audience, the more money they make from selling commercial time. It’s laughable how many people see these “activist microphones” as Pied Pipers who will take them to the Land of Oz (mixed metaphor, but you get the drift!).
Every day I thank God for giving me the ability to think for myself and the willingness to not take for granted what others in their quest for fame and fortune espouse to be objective truth.

Steve,

We may disagree with some things...but I must say that I like you....

Steve and Jeckyl,
Both of you are to be commmended for being able to express yourselves so well. I enjoy reading your posts and thank you for never resorting to name calling or partisan politics. More citizens should make it their business to develop viewpoints based on research, experience and facts, as you two do.
Glad you're part of TOTV!
:bigthumbsup:

Originally Posted by jeckyl

Steve,

We may disagree with some things...but I must say that I like you....

...and the offer of a cold one and conversation still stands. Will be back home in Sept.