There are some basic rules that all must agree to: (a) the power of the central government has been significantly increased, (b) the central government is now able to dictate health care, (c) the central government has the power to fine, jail and otherwise punish those that do not conform to their demands on personal priveleges rather than rights (d) the central government can dictate who receives certain medical treatments, (e) the central government can dictate who receives loans for education, (f) the central government can demand otherwise personal financial information, and so on and so on.
Is everyone getting the clue..This is a socialized government, your personal rights and freedom have been totally invaded and the central government has a huge call on you from cradle to grave. You are no longer in a free society.
You can scream all the arguments you want but fact is fact your freedom has been significantly taken away from you.
The government was not established to be another charity church. If you believe otherwise you should go back to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution
for reference. If you are too lazy to do that then you deserve what you get.
The real sad part of all of this is that we are passing on to the next generation our lazy lack of protection of freedom. It is too bad as we should have to live with what we have done and pay the price as opposed to forcing our children to pay the price of our lazyness.
Those who voted in or were in favor of the health bill are no better than an ACORN workers or a member of the Chicago corrupt political machine. They sold their soul for greed. God help up.

Originally Posted by REH7380

....your freedom has been significantly taken away from you...

I agree that the central government has become more powerful over the years--decades actually. The founding fathers designed a system with a "weak" central government with narrowly focused functions--national defense, maintaining a rule of law and foreign relations.The states were designed to have "strong" governments, providing the functions and services desired by their citizens, to whom they were closer to and presumably able to better understand.

Over time, almost 100 years now, the states willingly ceded their authority to the central government to provide services that the states either didn't want or couldn't afford to provide. In 1913 the 16th amendment to the Constitution made federal income taxes permanent. Between the taxes which they could levy and the fact that the central government could issue debt, and the states were very limited in that regard, the central government got more and more powerful. But our "states freedoms" weren't "taken away". The citizens of the U.S. during that century permitted them to be taken and replaced with an ever stronger central government.

Call it "creeping socialism" if you wish--that's as good a descriptive term as any other. But our government is what it is now, after taking almost a century to get here. To think for a moment that we could ever go back to the system originally designed by the framers of the Constitution is pure folly.

We're facing the challenge of making the best of the government that we have now, make it work more in line with our desires. But to think that we could ever go back to how the country was governed in the beginning is little more than wishful thinking. And to convince ourselves that someone, some political party or some political leader, came and took our freedoms away is totally inaccurate. Our predecessors over the last 100 years willingly permitted our government to be changed--probably permanently.

Why couldn't we go back? If the country goes bankrupt we would have to back-track a little, huh? If there was a nuclear war, we would have to rebuild. Like an alcoholic who has to hit rock-bottom to start the journey upwards to rebuild his life, there might be some point where this calamity would have to end. After all, the Great Depression saw many mighty people tumble.

It is good to visit Jefferson sometimes and get an insight as to how great he was and the evil he saw could happen without due dilligece by the people.


Jefferson himself favored a small, weak central government. To strong a central government, he believed, would trample the very rights it was meant to protect
**How true this turns out to be?


"[We] should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when corruption in this as in the country from which we derive our origin will have seized the heads of government and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic and will be alike influenced by the same causes." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIII, 1782. ME 2:164

Even in this, the birth of our government, some members [of the Legislature] were found sordid enough to bend their duty to their interests and to look after personal rather than public good." --Thomas Jefferson: The Anas, 1818. ME 1:271

'When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.'" --Thomas Jefferson: copied into his Commonplace Book.

Originally Posted by Donna2

Why couldn't we go back?...

I didn't write my opinion that we couldn't go back without some forethought. To try to answer your question of why we couldn't go back, let me just ask you this question...

Which of the currently provided services provided by the federal government would you agree to give up?

• Food & Drug Administration
• Department of Homeland Security
• The national parks
• The federal interstate highway system
• The SEC
• The Air Traffic Control system
• Medicare
• Social Security
• Veteran's Administration
• Center for Disease Control
• NHTSA
• U.S. Postal Service
• The Environmental Protection Agency
• DEA
• Immigration & Naturalization Service
• All the federal hospitals

I could go on, but I think you might get the drift. These are just a few of the services currently provided by the central government which either couldn't be adequately provided by or afforded by the states.

Like I said...there's no going back. We're way too far down the road towards a strong central government and weakened state and local governments.

VK, have you seen this proposal by Utah state leaders?

"We propose a modest experiment. As Utah state leaders, we are greatly concerned about the unprecedented expansion of the federal government over many years, and the enormous debt levels being left to our children and grandchildren.

We believe the federal government is attempting to do far more than it has the capacity to execute well. Congress has inserted itself into every aspect of our lives with laws and regulations that don't fit the widely divergent nature of the states and localities. The job descriptions assumed by President Obama and Congress have grown far larger than their ability to deliver.

We'd like to relieve some of their burden...."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021803978.html

PS REH7380, thanks for the visit with Jefferson. The breath of fresh air was appreciated.

Originally Posted by bkcunningham1

VK, have you seen this proposal by Utah state leaders?...

No, I hadn't seen that. But it sounds like a pretty good idea to me. There are certainly a lot of government programs that could be either done by the states or eliminated completely with little chance of bad results.

Unfortunately, if things like have been proposed by Utah were accepted by the federal government and done by the states, the results would be a miniscule reduction in federal spending--way less than 1% for the programs Utah mentions. Check the federal budget yourself to see what I mean.

The value of the Utah proposal is far more "sending a message" regarding state's rights than it is anything that would materially change the amount of debt we are leaving to coming generations. That result doesn't devalue such a message--I think it should be sent anyway. But to think that far more fundamental and Draconian changes to both spending as well as taxation won't be necessary is simply incorrect.

Again, look at the federal budget and national debt yourself; see if you can figure out a way to minimize the weight of the debt we will leave future generations. It will soon become clear to anyone who does this that what will be necessary will be far more lifestyle changing than anything like what is suggested by Utah.

Health Bill new Boards and Commissions..!! There are so many that I have to break them into 2 notes in order to fit the constraints of the web site. Please see second note for rest of list.

1. Grant program for consumer assistance offices (Section 1002, p. 37)
2. Grant program for states to monitor premium increases (Section 1003, p.
42)
3. Committee to review administrative simplification standards (Section
1104, p. 71)
4. Demonstration program for state wellness programs (Section 1201, p. 93)
5. Grant program to establish state Exchanges (Section 1311(a), p. 130)
6. State American Health Benefit Exchanges (Section 1311(b), p. 131)
7. Exchange grants to establish consumer navigator programs (Section
1311(i), p. 150)
8. Grant program for state cooperatives (Section 1322, p. 169)
9. Advisory board for state cooperatives (Section 1322(b)(3), p. 173)
10. Private purchasing council for state cooperatives (Section 1322(d), p.
177)
11. State basic health plan programs (Section 1331, p. 201)
12. State-based reinsurance program (Section 1341, p. 226)
13. Program of risk corridors for individual and small group markets
(Section 1342, p. 233)
14. Program to determine eligibility for Exchange participation (Section
1411, p. 267)
15. Program for advance determination of tax credit eligibility (Section
1412, p. 288)
16. Grant program to implement health IT enrollment standards (Section 1561,
p. 370)
17. Federal Coordinated Health Care Office for dual eligible beneficiaries
(Section 2602, p. 512)
18. Medicaid quality measurement program (Section 2701, p. 518)
19. Medicaid health home program for people with chronic conditions, and
grants for planning same (Section 2703, p. 524)
20. Medicaid demonstration project to evaluate bundled payments (Section
2704, p. 532)
21. Medicaid demonstration project for global payment system (Section 2705,
p. 536)
22. Medicaid demonstration project for accountable care organizations
(Section 2706, p. 538)
23. Medicaid demonstration project for emergency psychiatric care (Section
2707, p. 540)
24. Grant program for delivery of services to individuals with postpartum
depression (Section 2952(b), p. 591)
25. State allotments for grants to promote personal responsibility education
programs (Section 2953, p. 596)
26. Medicare value-based purchasing program (Section 3001(a), p. 613)
27. Medicare value-based purchasing demonstration program for critical
access hospitals (Section 3001(b), p. 637)
28. Medicare value-based purchasing program for skilled nursing facilities
(Section 3006(a), p. 666)
29. Medicare value-based purchasing program for home health agencies
(Section 3006(b), p. 668)
30. Interagency Working Group on Health Care Quality (Section 3012, p. 688)
31. Grant program to develop health care quality measures (Section 3013, p.
693)
32. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation (Section 3021, p. 712)
33. Medicare shared savings program (Section 3022, p. 728)
34. Medicare pilot program on payment bundling (Section 3023, p. 739)
35. Independence at home medical practice demonstration program (Section
3024, p. 752)
36. Program for use of patient safety organizations to reduce hospital
readmission rates (Section 3025(b), p. 775)
37. Community-based care transitions program (Section 3026, p. 776)
38. Demonstration project for payment of complex diagnostic laboratory tests
(Section 3113, p. 800)
39. Medicare hospice concurrent care demonstration project (Section 3140, p.
850)
40. Independent Payment Advisory Board (Section 3403, p. 982)
41. Consumer Advisory Council for Independent Payment Advisory Board
(Section 3403, p. 1027)
42. Grant program for technical assistance to providers implementing health
quality practices (Section 3501, p. 1043)
43. Grant program to establish interdisciplinary health teams (Section 3502,
p. 1048)
44. Grant program to implement medication therapy management (Section 3503,
p. 1055)
45. Grant program to support emergency care pilot programs (Section 3504, p.
1061)
46. Grant program to promote universal access to trauma services (Section
3505(b), p. 1081)
47. Grant program to develop and promote shared decision-making aids
(Section 3506, p. 1088)
48. Grant program to support implementation of shared decision-making
(Section 3506, p. 1091)
49. Grant program to integrate quality improvement in clinical education
(Section 3508, p. 1095)
50. Health and Human Services Coordinating Committee on Women’s Health
(Section 3509(a), p. 1098)
51. Centers for Disease Control Office of Women’s Health (Section 3509(b),
p. 1102)
52. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Women’s Health
(Section 3509(e), p. 1105)
53. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Women’s Health
(Section 3509(f), p. 1106)
54. Food and Drug Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 3509(g),
p. 1109)
55. National Prevention, Health Promotion, and Public Health Council
(Section 4001, p. 1114)
56. Advisory Group on Prevention, Health Promotion, and Integrative and
Public Health (Section 4001(f), p. 1117)
57. Prevention and Public Health Fund (Section 4002, p. 1121)
58. Community Preventive Services Task Force (Section 4003(b), p. 1126)
59. Grant program to support school-based health centers (Section 4101, p.
1135)
60. Grant program to promote research-based dental caries disease management
(Section 4102, p. 1147)
61. Grant program for States to prevent chronic disease in Medicaid
beneficiaries (Section 4108, p. 1174)
62. Community transformation grants (Section 4201, p. 1182)
63. Grant program to provide public health interventions (Section 4202, p.
1188)
64. Demonstration program of grants to improve child immunization rates
(Section 4204(b), p. 1200)
65. Pilot program for risk-factor assessments provided through community
health centers (Section 4206, p. 1215)
66. Grant program to increase epidemiology and laboratory capacity (Section
4304, p. 1233)
67. Interagency Pain Research Coordinating Committee (Section 4305, p. 1238)
68. National Health Care Workforce Commission (Section 5101, p. 1256)
69. Grant program to plan health care workforce development activities
(Section 5102(c), p. 1275)
70. Grant program to implement health care workforce development activities
(Section 5102(d), p. 1279)
71. Pediatric specialty loan repayment program (Section 5203, p. 1295)
72. Public Health Workforce Loan Repayment Program (Section 5204, p. 1300)
73. Allied Health Loan Forgiveness Program (Section 5205, p. 1305)
74. Grant program to provide mid-career training for health professionals
(Section 5206, p. 1307)
75. Grant program to fund nurse-managed health clinics (Section 5208, p.
1310)
76. Grant program to support primary care training programs (Section 5301,
p. 1315)
77. Grant program to fund training for direct care workers (Section 5302, p.
1322)
78. Grant program to develop dental training programs (Section 5303, p.
1325)
79. Demonstration program to increase access to dental health care in
underserved communities (Section 5304, p. 1331)
80. Grant program to promote geriatric education centers (Section 5305, p.
1334)
81. Grant program to promote health professionals entering geriatrics
(Section 5305, p. 1339)
82. Grant program to promote training in mental and behavioral health
(Section 5306, p. 1344)
83. Grant program to promote nurse retention programs (Section 5309, p.
1354)
84. Student loan forgiveness for nursing school faculty (Section 5311(b), p.
1360)
85. Grant program to promote positive health behaviors and outcomes (Section
5313, p. 1364)
86. Public Health Sciences Track for medical students (Section 5315, p.
1372)
87. Primary Care Extension Program to educate providers (Section 5405, p.
1404)
88. Grant program for demonstration projects to address health workforce
shortage needs (Section 5507, p. 1442)
89. Grant program for demonstration projects to develop training programs
for home health aides (Section 5507, p. 1447)
90. Grant program to establish new primary care residency programs (Section
5508(a), p. 1458)
91. Program of payments to teaching health centers that sponsor medical
residency training (Section 5508(c), p. 1462)
92. Graduate nurse education demonstration program (Section 5509, p. 1472)
93. Grant program to establish demonstration projects for community-based
mental health settings (Section 5604, p. 1486)
94. Commission on Key National Indicators (Section 5605, p. 1489)
95. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled
nursing facilities (Section 6102, p. 1554)
96. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section
6103(a)(3), p. 1561)
97. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section
6103(b)(3), p. 1568)
98. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing
facilities and nursing facilities (Section 6112, p. 1589)
99. Demonstration projects for nursing facilities involved in the culture
change movement (Section 6114, p. 1597)
100. Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (Section 6301, p. 1619)

Here are the rest of the Boards and Commissions that will be set up as a result of the Healt Care Bill. Welcome to the Politburo.

101. Standing methodology committee for Patient-Centered Outcomes Research
Institute (Section 6301, p. 1629)
102. Board of Governors for Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute
(Section 6301, p. 1638)
103. Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Trust Fund (Section 6301(e), p.
1656)
104. Elder Justice Coordinating Council (Section 6703, p. 1773)
105. Advisory Board on Elder Abuse, Neglect, and Exploitation (Section 6703,
p. 1776)
106. Grant program to create elder abuse forensic centers (Section 6703, p.
1783)
107. Grant program to promote continuing education for long-term care
staffers (Section 6703, p. 1787)
108. Grant program to improve management practices and training (Section
6703, p. 1788)
109. Grant program to subsidize costs of electronic health records (Section
6703, p. 1791)
110. Grant program to promote adult protective services (Section 6703, p.
1796)
111. Grant program to conduct elder abuse detection and prevention (Section
6703, p. 1798)
112. Grant program to support long-term care ombudsmen (Section 6703, p.
1800)
113. National Training Institute for long-term care surveyors (Section 6703,
p. 1806)
114. Grant program to fund State surveys of long-term care residences
(Section 6703, p. 1809)
115. CLASS Independence Fund (Section 8002, p. 1926)
116. CLASS Independence Fund Board of Trustees (Section 8002, p. 1927)
117. CLASS Independence Advisory Council (Section 8002, p. 1931)
118. Personal Care Attendants Workforce Advisory Panel (Section 8002(c), p.
1938)
119. Multi-state health plans offered by Office of Personnel Management
(Section 10104(p), p. 2086)
120. Advisory board for multi-state health plans (Section 10104(p), p. 2094)
121. Pregnancy Assistance Fund (Section 10212, p. 2164)
122. Value-based purchasing program for ambulatory surgical centers (Section
10301, p. 2176)
123. Demonstration project for payment adjustments to home health services
(Section 10315, p. 2200)
124. Pilot program for care of individuals in environmental emergency
declaration areas (Section 10323, p. 2223)
125. Grant program to screen at-risk individuals for environmental health
conditions (Section 10323(b), p. 2231)
126. Pilot programs to implement value-based purchasing (Section 10326, p.
2242)
127. Grant program to support community-based collaborative care networks
(Section 10333, p. 2265)
128. Centers for Disease Control Office of Minority Health (Section 10334,
p. 2272)
129. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Minority Health
(Section 10334, p. 2272)
130. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration Office of
Minority Health (Section 10334, p. 2272)
131. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Minority Health
(Section 10334, p. 2272)
132. Food and Drug Administration Office of Minority Health (Section 10334,
p. 2272)
133. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Office of Minority Health
(Section 10334, p. 2272)
134. Grant program to promote small business wellness programs (Section
10408, p. 2285)
135. Cures Acceleration Network (Section 10409, p. 2289)
136. Cures Acceleration Network Review Board (Section 10409, p. 2291)
137. Grant program for Cures Acceleration Network (Section 10409, p. 2297)
138. Grant program to promote centers of excellence for depression (Section
10410, p. 2304)
139. Advisory committee for young women’s breast health awareness education
campaign (Section 10413, p. 2322)
140. Grant program to provide assistance to provide information to young
women with breast cancer (Section 10413, p. 2326)
141. Interagency Access to Health Care in Alaska Task Force (Section 10501,
p. 2329)
142. Grant program to train nurse practitioners as primary care providers
(Section 10501(e), p. 2332)
143. Grant program for community-based diabetes prevention (Section
10501(g), p. 2337)
144. Grant program for providers who treat a high percentage of medically
underserved populations (Section 10501(k), p. 2343)
145. Grant program to recruit students to practice in underserved
communities (Section 10501(l), p. 2344)
146. Community Health Center Fund (Section 10503, p. 2355)
147. Demonstration project to provide access to health care for the
uninsured at reduced fees (Section 10504, p. 2357)
148. Demonstration program to explore alternatives to tort litigation
(Section 10607, p. 2369)
149. Indian Health demonstration program for chronic shortages of health
professionals (S. 1790, Section 112, p. 24)*
150. Office of Indian Men’s Health (S. 1790, Section 136, p. 71)*
151. Indian Country modular component facilities demonstration program (S.
1790, Section 146, p. 108)*
152. Indian mobile health stations demonstration program (S. 1790, Section
147, p. 111)*
153. Office of Direct Service Tribes (S. 1790, Section 172, p. 151)*
154. Indian Health Service mental health technician training program (S.
1790, Section 181, p. 173)*
155. Indian Health Service program for treatment of child sexual abuse
victims (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 192)*
156. Indian Health Service program for treatment of domestic violence and
sexual abuse (S. 1790, Section 181, p. 194)*
157. Indian youth telemental health demonstration project (S. 1790, Section
181, p. 204)*
158. Indian youth life skills demonstration project (S. 1790, Section 181,
p. 220)*
159. Indian Health Service Director of HIV/AIDS Prevention and Treatment (S.
1790, Section 199B, p. 258)*

*Section 10221, page 2173 of H.R. 3590 deems that S. 1790 shall be deemed as
passed with certain amendments.

I am convinced that this new health care bill will be efficient and give Americans great service with no need for any death panels or any cut- backs on accessibility to the greatest doctors on earth.
I feel so good about myself that I could just cry. Isn't the USA a great place to get free stuff? And the best part is that I'll be dead and will not have to worry about how it is going to be paid.
Freedom- it is way over- rated.

Thomas Jefferson - "We have had 13. states independent 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusetts: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen-yard in order."

The key here is Massachusetts. Here's a fun little history lesson. What happened in Massachusetts?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays'_Rebellion

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../03/025922.php

CBS took a poll and 62% said they were in favor of the Republicans continuing efforts on a repeal. 33% said no. Pretty large margin.