Originally Posted by cologal

The answer to #2 is.. Erich Mancow Muller, a conservative radio talk show host, was waterboarded. He repeatedly stated that waterboarding was NOT torture and wanted to prove that. Oh well... now he understands what this really was. The one of your own comment referred to the fact he was a conservative....

As for #1...What good are our values if we abandon them so quickly? We tried people for war crimes on this same issue. How can we hold the moral high ground now? Also, there are various claims out there about the value of the information....one reports Cheney's office demanded this procedure to prove a link between Hussein and Al-Qaeda existed. It didn't exist. If this is true then the waterboarding of at least one terrorist was done for self serving reasons.

I have two nephews in the military...one of which has been to Iraq 4 times, wounded once. These tactics put them at risk should they be captured.

My mother used to always say this to me...."Don't sink to their level"

Seems to be a good point here.

Cologal,

We've discussed this before, and with mutual respect. The issue is one where moral concerns intersect with situational practicality, and the lousiest part of it is that the people who would be the recipients of the procedure have full control as to whether there would even be a consideration to apply it.

Your concerns for the welfare of your nephews are sincere, and no comments from anyone (as we are virtually unknown to each other) on this board can (and should) change a sincere feeling of anyone. I would suggest that your nephews, as they sound like good people with considerable experience in dealing with the personalities, and you discuss the issue. Whatever their opinions are on the topic, the opinions will not be based on the theoretical.....

And should you speak to them over this weekend, please inform them that a crusty old vet from TV thanks them for their service in these controversial times.

Originally Posted by dklassen

It's not about sinking to their level, it's about saving thousands of American lives through Intel gained from interrogation of captured terrorists... which already has saved thousands of lives and apparently will no longer save thousands of lives.

I guess water boarding can be pretty scary to the terrorist who's getting wet. Wonder how the people felt in the twin towers as they plummeted to their death? Or the passengers on the planes who had time to ponder their fate? Or the kids who's daddy or mommy didn't come home from work that day? Or the mothers and fathers who would never see their children again?

Sorry, everything changed after that and I hold no sympathy for terrorists and as far as I'm concerned they have lost all rights to anything.

Fortunately you don't get to decide that.....President Bush stood before the American people and said "We don't torture" But he lied.

Originally Posted by SteveZ

Cologal,

We've discussed this before, and with mutual respect. The issue is one where moral concerns intersect with situational practicality, and the lousiest part of it is that the people who would be the recipients of the procedure have full control as to whether there would even be a consideration to apply it.

Your concerns for the welfare of your nephews are sincere, and no comments from anyone (as we are virtually unknown to each other) on this board can (and should) change a sincere feeling of anyone. I would suggest that your nephews, as they sound like good people with considerable experience in dealing with the personalities, and you discuss the issue. Whatever their opinions are on the topic, the opinions will not be based on the theoretical.....

And should you speak to them over this weekend, please inform them that a crusty old vet from TV thanks them for their service in these controversial times.

Steve...Thank you. I was visiting my nephew the Marine when he got the orders to Iraq, in advance of the current war. We had long respectful discussions. I was also lucky to be around when he came home from his last deployment. At that time I told him if he went again I would just shoot him myself. (Kidding of course but the stress does get to you).

I certainly forward your message the next time I speak to them. And on this Memorial Day Weekend thank you for your service and the other vets on this board.

Originally Posted by cologal

Fortunately you don't get to decide that.....President Bush stood before the American people and said "We don't torture" But he lied.

Well said.

Originally Posted by Villages Kahuna

On this morning's George Stephanapolous show, the panel of commentators ranging from far right (George Will) to far left (Donna Brazile) and a couple in the right and left middle (David Brooks and E.J. Dionne), all agreed on what President Obama's current position was relative to national security in general and the jailed terrorists in Guantanamo. They agreed that Obama's current position is almost exactly the same as President Bush's on the same issues.

They went on to agree that the "debate" between President Obama, Dick Cheney and other members of Congress was essentially political noise-making and that neither side could truly identify substantial differences in the position, beliefs or policy of "their side" versus that of the other.

Mine will be the 26th post in this thread. There have been many "back and forth" comments about which person and which political party truly has the correct slant on national security, when in fact there is virtually no difference in the beliefs and values of either side. I guess we hear what we want to hear from the politicians, depending on which side we're backing.

GREAT POST VK...you are right on !

The only negative I have is the political hay being made by both sides but I am so tired of hearing the President talk about the "mess" he got from the last adminstration and then continuing the policy.

The Bush administration called it a mess.....amazing how time seems to change people....from 9/11 for a few years there was no political huffing and puffing as these things were put into place....it was done to protect us and the mindset at the time was not what it is today.

I agree...there is very little difference EXCEPT for all the political gains trying to be made !

I just wish that during the campaign Obama had been a bit more forthright because he attacked most of what he is continuing although in his defense perhaps he has learned a few things

Originally Posted by Bucco

GREAT POST VK...you are right on !

The only negative I have is the political hay being made by both sides but I am so tired of hearing the President talk about the "mess" he got from the last adminstration and then continuing the policy.

The Bush administration called it a mess.....amazing how time seems to change people....from 9/11 for a few years there was no political huffing and puffing as these things were put into place....it was done to protect us and the mindset at the time was not what it is today.

I agree...there is very little difference EXCEPT for all the political gains trying to be made !

I just wish that during the campaign Obama had been a bit more forthright because he attacked most of what he is continuing although in his defense perhaps he has learned a few things

Good points. No one is 100% right and no one is 100% wrong. There always has to be some middle ground.

learning there are some things POTUS does that are unpopular, but have to be done. Not exactly a style a professional campaigner is happy or good with.
Some of the about faces he has made reflect this happening.
He will in time....I CERTAINLY HOPE....will do what has to be done for the sake of saving America....regardless the popularity of the issue.
He is very uncomfortable when having to take a position similar to or in support of what Bush said/did.
Obama is a populist.....one cannot be a populist and a good POTUS.
He stands a better chance at faking it when needed with the ready assitance of his media darlings.

BTK