Let me not "twist" your words so I will respond directly to them:

Quote:I, personally, NEVER SAID that our young soldiers were the bullies. They just follow orders. Yes, indeed, they are hero's.

So they died for no cause other than some orders from a "bully". What a shame you would say this about the ones who put their lives down for freedom for the Iraq people, stopped the proliferation of Sadam's attempt to take over the oil fieds in the mid east while killing millions of his people. Died on the battle fronts of France, Germany, Italy, et. They died as hero's protecting humanity and at the orders of the Commander in Chief of the USA. I am proud of them and the President(s).

Quote:We had become a joke, and a bad joke at that.

Your right. Any country who sends their young men over to free people and they die securing others freedom and then the same country has some of its citizens apologizing is a "joke". And what a bad joke on our country. It would be better to be proud of who we are and then we will not be a "joke" I don't see Germany appoligizing for the death camps, or Japan for attacking on December 7th or Saudia Arabia for the men from their country flying into the World Trade Towers.

Quote:I, personally, am proud that we FINALLY have a President that can string two sentences together, and bring hope, not just to us, but to the world in general. President Obama fully understands that we are not ALONE in the world. And without new and stronger alliances, we will surely go the way of other "fallen empires" that also thought they were the only game in town.

The sad part of this is there is a lack of understanding of pre WWII and history. Yes, there are fallen empires, such as Germany after WWII, Japan after WWII, Iraq dictator after the Iraq war. I can't believe there is a comparison being made to these criminal empires. To the death camps of Germany, to the tortures to our hero's in Japan, to the gasing by Sadam in Iraq and the rest of the criminal empires. Does anyone think America is going the way of these horrible people. In every case we stood up for humanity and fought for their freedoms. Please don't refer to Obama in the same paragraph as these hero's. He never served, never put his life on the line for freedom.

And I'll thank you to not twist my words in the future.

I don't think I twisted your words but rather responded to your positions.

Originally Posted by PennBF

Let me not "twist" your words so I will respond directly to them:

Quote:I, personally, NEVER SAID that our young soldiers were the bullies. They just follow orders. Yes, indeed, they are hero's.

So they died for no cause other than some orders from a "bully". What a shame you would say this about the ones who put their lives down for freedom for the Iraq people, stopped the proliferation of Sadam's attempt to take over the oil fieds in the mid east while killing millions of his people. Died on the battle fronts of France, Germany, Italy, et. They died as hero's protecting humanity and at the orders of the Commander in Chief of the USA. I am proud of them and the President(s).

Quote:We had become a joke, and a bad joke at that.

Your right. Any country who sends their young men over to free people and they die securing others freedom and then the same country has some of its citizens apologizing is a "joke". And what a bad joke on our country. It would be better to be proud of who we are and then we will not be a "joke" I don't see Germany appoligizing for the death camps, or Japan for attacking on December 7th or Saudia Arabia for the men from their country flying into the World Trade Towers.

Quote:I, personally, am proud that we FINALLY have a President that can string two sentences together, and bring hope, not just to us, but to the world in general. President Obama fully understands that we are not ALONE in the world. And without new and stronger alliances, we will surely go the way of other "fallen empires" that also thought they were the only game in town.

The sad part of this is there is a lack of understanding of pre WWII and history. Yes, there are fallen empires, such as Germany after WWII, Japan after WWII, Iraq dictator after the Iraq war. I can't believe there is a comparison being made to these criminal empires. To the death camps of Germany, to the tortures to our hero's in Japan, to the gasing by Sadam in Iraq and the rest of the criminal empires. Does anyone think America is going the way of these horrible people. In every case we stood up for humanity and fought for their freedoms. Please don't refer to Obama in the same paragraph as these hero's. He never served, never put his life on the line for freedom.

And I'll thank you to not twist my words in the future.

I don't think I twisted your words but rather responded to your positions.

Don't see any word twisting in this post, just the facts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally Posted by PennBF

Let me not "twist" your words so I will respond directly to them:

Quote:I, personally, NEVER SAID that our young soldiers were the bullies. They just follow orders. Yes, indeed, they are hero's.

So they died for no cause other than some orders from a "bully". What a shame you would say this about the ones who put their lives down for freedom for the Iraq people, stopped the proliferation of Sadam's attempt to take over the oil fieds in the mid east while killing millions of his people. Died on the battle fronts of France, Germany, Italy, et. They died as hero's protecting humanity and at the orders of the Commander in Chief of the USA. I am proud of them and the President(s).

Quote:We had become a joke, and a bad joke at that.

Your right. Any country who sends their young men over to free people and they die securing others freedom and then the same country has some of its citizens apologizing is a "joke". And what a bad joke on our country. It would be better to be proud of who we are and then we will not be a "joke" I don't see Germany appoligizing for the death camps, or Japan for attacking on December 7th or Saudia Arabia for the men from their country flying into the World Trade Towers.

Quote:I, personally, am proud that we FINALLY have a President that can string two sentences together, and bring hope, not just to us, but to the world in general. President Obama fully understands that we are not ALONE in the world. And without new and stronger alliances, we will surely go the way of other "fallen empires" that also thought they were the only game in town.

The sad part of this is there is a lack of understanding of pre WWII and history. Yes, there are fallen empires, such as Germany after WWII, Japan after WWII, Iraq dictator after the Iraq war. I can't believe there is a comparison being made to these criminal empires. To the death camps of Germany, to the tortures to our hero's in Japan, to the gasing by Sadam in Iraq and the rest of the criminal empires. Does anyone think America is going the way of these horrible people. In every case we stood up for humanity and fought for their freedoms. Please don't refer to Obama in the same paragraph as these hero's. He never served, never put his life on the line for freedom.

And I'll thank you to not twist my words in the future.

I don't think I twisted your words but rather responded to your positions.

Wow, somebody found the red crayon! Are you under the impression that I haven't had relatives and loved ones die in wars defending our country. For the last time, our soldiers are hero's following orders. We should have no more invaded Iraq than Kansas! Good Lord! Can't you even see that???
Again, don't put words in my mouth about the soldiers. That's an old, old right wing trick.

My position is to respect other countries and other cultures. That is what our President is doing. All this petty crap about bowing is a waste of time and energy. We need alliances. Don't you get that? I suppose President Obama shouldn't have gone to China either? Guess what! They own us. They're our backers! Get a grip on reality and learn to be a little humble. We're not in the best position in the world, no matter how pretty a picture you like to paint.

I love this country as much as you do... make no mistake about that! But, if you want to sit by and fiddle while Rome burns, that's you're prerogative. And whether you like it or not, President Obama is the Commander in Chief. Clearly, you're a member of the party of NO. Good luck with that.

I'll match my familes contributions to this country up against yours anytime.

Originally Posted by chelsea24

I, personally, NEVER SAID that our young soldiers were the bullies. They just follow orders. Yes, indeed, they are hero's.

It's the general attitude of past administrations (not only Republican's, but most) and the extreme right, always calling for "let's attack" that I call bullies.

I am also proud to be an American, but I don't wear blinders. We strive for perfection, but we are not perfect. I, also, make no apologies for saying... We can be better and do better to heal the alliances so damaged by the previous administration. We had become a joke, and a bad joke at that.

I, personally, am proud that we FINALLY have a President that can string two sentences together, and bring hope, not just to us, but to the world in general. President Obama fully understands that we are not ALONE in the world. And without new and stronger alliances, we will surely go the way of other "fallen empires" that also thought they were the only game in town.

And I'll thank you to not twist my words in the future.

This is not the kind of thread I usually post in because frankly I dont care how he bows to anyone...I just want him to be OUR President !

However, you always refer to what you refer to as the "extreme right" and usually follow that with an "extreme left" talking point. Just thought I would point that out to you.

Secondly, while I have reserved judgement on this president relative to foreigh affairs, I will tell you this....The President is the President of the USA, not the world...even though he thinks he is. His JOB is to protect this country, noone else....he should be proud and say he is proud. If you actually read about the past President and what he did, you will find that he did much to enforce our resolve to the world...did he maybe at times go too far...probably....does this President go to far the other way...yes.

I think you should brush up on what makes a president....it is not based on stringing two sentences together, although this president was basically elected on that premise.

As I said, I am pending judgement on foreign affairs with this president but had to respond as you sound like a soundbite from MOVEON !

You can't have it both ways. You are either proud of our country or you are not.
If you bow to a foreign power and say you are ashamed of your country then that is who you are.
If you put other lives ahead of the ones you were elected to protect then that is who you are.
If you visit other countries and appologize for our country then that is who you are.
If you put people in the administration who violate or ignore the Constitution then that is who you are.
If you come from one of the most political corrupt area of the USA then that is who you are.
If you lie and promise actions which you cannot deliver then that is who you are.
If these lead to being something other than a leader of the United States of American then that is who you are.
Too many want it both ways today. It does not work. Your actions speak for who you are not worthless words.
As they say you have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Originally Posted by PennBF

You can't have it both ways. You are either proud of our country or you are not. Nothing is that black and white. Do you have children? Are you proud of them or not? When they did something wrong, did that make you love them less?
If you bow to a foreign power and say you are ashamed of your country then that is who you are. I'm sorry, did he whisper "I apologize for America while bowing??? Wow, and Fox News missed this? Hahahah!
If you put other lives ahead of the ones you were elected to protect then that is who you are. And President Obama is doing this how???
If you visit other countries and appologize for our country then that is who you are. We are not perfect. No person or country is! Reality check!
If you put people in the administration who violate or ignore the Constitution then that is who you are. President Obama taught Constitutional Law. Bet he knows a lot more about it than you do.
If you come from one of the most political corrupt area of the USA then that is who you are. Are you referring to Chicago??? Because I'm from Chicago. Do you think every human being in Chicago is corrupt? That's just plain moronic! And where are you from? Bet we can dig up lots of corruption.
If you lie and promise actions which you cannot deliver then that is who you are. Oh, you mean like starting a war over WMD's that do not exist?
If these lead to being something other than a leader of the United States of American then that is who you are. This doesn't even make sense.
Too many want it both ways today. It does not work. Your actions speak for who you are not worthless words. Never underestimate the power of a kind word or gesture.
As they say you have to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.

Are we through walking and talking yet???

Originally Posted by PennBF

So they died for no cause other than some orders from a "bully". What a shame you would say this about the ones who put their lives down for freedom for the Iraq people, stopped the proliferation of Sadam's attempt to take over the oil fieds in the mid east while killing millions of his people. Died on the battle fronts of France, Germany, Italy, et. They died as hero's protecting humanity and at the orders of the Commander in Chief of the USA. I am proud of them and the President(s).

I would put it differently. Our soldiers died in Iraq because of the deliberate lies told by the Commander In Chief. Our soldiers are dying in Afghanistan because of the previous administration's concentration on Iraw and our current administrations hand-wrangling about which way to go, policywise.

I remember how Iraq started. This wasn't about freedom for the Iraqi people. If it was, we would have attacked Saudi Arabia for treating their women like chattel. We would be attacking North Korea because, well, they actually DO have nukes. It was all about WMD programs, yellowcake, etc. That's how it was sold to the American People. On top of that, as many as 60% of the population believed that Saddam has something to do with 9/11. That little tidbit has been proven false again and again.

When we were running up to invasion, I was in a group discussing this and my personal reservation was that we had never before been a "first strike country". I was nervous about what kind of precedent this would set. BUT - given all the word having come out about nukes and chemical weapons, and the fact that Saddam DID use them on his own people (so it wasn't a stretch to say he would use them on others) kept me from openly opposing the war.

Privately, behind closed doors, it seems the administration was hell-bent on pinning 9/11 on Saddam so we could have justification for invasion. Why? Who really knows? I've heard everything from the President wanting revenge on Iraq's leaders for the assasination attempt to a theory that it was something to demonstrate American military might against a country where we already had assets on the ground (making it a much easier logistical target - like when Noriega declared 'maximum war' on the us with a pair of military bases right there in Panama).

When our soliders died in Europe or in the Pacific Theater or Korea, those were in response to attacks. Even the war in kuwait was in response to naked aggression. Afghanistan harbored the people who attacked us on 9/11. All clear justification for war. I remember the ultimatum that Bush delivered saying, basically, "hand over Bin Laden or else". My "tree hugging" friends didn't think Bush would even SAY those words but I was sure he would, and he did. We all know what happened next.

The "technical" justification for invading Iraq? Saddam wasn't allowing inspectors into research facilities in a timely manner, perpetually playing a game of cat-and-mouse with them. Now we know that he was bluffing but we weren't so sure then. Except I wonder about the administration officials (but not Bush himself) who said we'd find the goods within a week because they had intelligence on exactly where the chemical and nuclear materials were.

This is far different from the defense missions in the past.

My mom was a Marine. My father was in the Navy. I work on an Air Force base. My brother was in the Navy. My fiancee has one son in the Army (back from Iraq) and one son who just left the Navy. My other brother discovered he had a hole in his heart during his physical when he enlisted in the Air Force.

Go ahead. TELL me I'm disrespecting them because I disagree with the Commander In Chief misusing the nobility that is our armed forces. TELL me I'm disrespecting them because I disagree with sending National Guard troops overseas.

When they enlisted, they signed a check to the U. S. Government that can be cashed at any time requiring them to give up their lives.

If you can't see the difference between the respect I have for the soldiers and the disrespect I have for the way they were utilitzed, then I truly do feel sorry for you.

I guess George Washington attacking the British as a "frist strike" was wrong. I guess saving millions from the killing and torture of Sadam was a mistake. I see America as a country who is concerned with others, an America that is good and I am proud of the last President who did not stand by and try to evaluate everything on a political basis but defended us against any further attacks since 911. It seems to be popular to attack him while enjoying the safety he provided to all Americans.

Originally Posted by djplong

I would put it differently. Our soldiers died in Iraq because of the deliberate lies told by the Commander In Chief. Our soldiers are dying in Afghanistan because of the previous administration's concentration on Iraw and our current administrations hand-wrangling about which way to go, policywise.

I remember how Iraq started. This wasn't about freedom for the Iraqi people. If it was, we would have attacked Saudi Arabia for treating their women like chattel. We would be attacking North Korea because, well, they actually DO have nukes. It was all about WMD programs, yellowcake, etc. That's how it was sold to the American People. On top of that, as many as 60% of the population believed that Saddam has something to do with 9/11. That little tidbit has been proven false again and again.

When we were running up to invasion, I was in a group discussing this and my personal reservation was that we had never before been a "first strike country". I was nervous about what kind of precedent this would set. BUT - given all the word having come out about nukes and chemical weapons, and the fact that Saddam DID use them on his own people (so it wasn't a stretch to say he would use them on others) kept me from openly opposing the war.

Privately, behind closed doors, it seems the administration was hell-bent on pinning 9/11 on Saddam so we could have justification for invasion. Why? Who really knows? I've heard everything from the President wanting revenge on Iraq's leaders for the assasination attempt to a theory that it was something to demonstrate American military might against a country where we already had assets on the ground (making it a much easier logistical target - like when Noriega declared 'maximum war' on the us with a pair of military bases right there in Panama).

When our soliders died in Europe or in the Pacific Theater or Korea, those were in response to attacks. Even the war in kuwait was in response to naked aggression. Afghanistan harbored the people who attacked us on 9/11. All clear justification for war. I remember the ultimatum that Bush delivered saying, basically, "hand over Bin Laden or else". My "tree hugging" friends didn't think Bush would even SAY those words but I was sure he would, and he did. We all know what happened next.

The "technical" justification for invading Iraq? Saddam wasn't allowing inspectors into research facilities in a timely manner, perpetually playing a game of cat-and-mouse with them. Now we know that he was bluffing but we weren't so sure then. Except I wonder about the administration officials (but not Bush himself) who said we'd find the goods within a week because they had intelligence on exactly where the chemical and nuclear materials were.

This is far different from the defense missions in the past.

My mom was a Marine. My father was in the Navy. I work on an Air Force base. My brother was in the Navy. My fiancee has one son in the Army (back from Iraq) and one son who just left the Navy. My other brother discovered he had a hole in his heart during his physical when he enlisted in the Air Force.

Go ahead. TELL me I'm disrespecting them because I disagree with the Commander In Chief misusing the nobility that is our armed forces. TELL me I'm disrespecting them because I disagree with sending National Guard troops overseas.

When they enlisted, they signed a check to the U. S. Government that can be cashed at any time requiring them to give up their lives.

If you can't see the difference between the respect I have for the soldiers and the disrespect I have for the way they were utilitzed, then I truly do feel sorry for you.

Well said! And thank you to your family for all they have contributed to this country.

I also have had many family members served and protected the United States some of which..2 brothers and a father 1941-1945. WWII Prisioner of War who was shot down and taken prisioner of war (as an aside he flew off of the same aircraft carrier that our former President Bush flew off of and was shot down), Vietnam and both Iraq (F16 pilot) 2 time deployed Afganstan (Stealth bomber pilot) and Kosov (Stealth Bomber Pilot), Base Commander Special Ops and a neice who was in the Army and is buried in a Military cemetary and was 28 years old when she died..BUT it is not about us nor should it be. I respect and honor any and all who have served our country. In WWII I attended the burial services where 12-14 hero's were buried at the same time at the Arlington National Cemetary.
I with emphasis on "I" am proud to be an American and of my last President.
I have been to the pesudo intellectual cocktail parties in California where it is popular to pretend they are smarter than all the advise provided to our President, could make better decisions without facts, and like to believe they have a higher moral ground and love for humanity than the unfortunate person and President(s) who must make the decisions and live with them.
He was there for the Americans when 9/11 happened, he promised he would take all actions to protect us from further strikes and he has. We should honor him and thank him for his strength to set aside the naysayers and
although continually attacked and accused of all sorts of terrible things held the course and protected us against any further terrorist attacks. Lets hope the one that followed him can do the same thing.

Originally Posted by PennBF

I guess George Washington attacking the British as a "frist strike" was wrong.
...
I am proud of the last President who did not stand by and try to evaluate everything on a political basis but defended us against any further attacks since 911. It seems to be popular to attack him while enjoying the safety he provided to all Americans.

1) What Revolutionary War did YOU study? The first shots were fired a few miles from where I'm sitting right now (I work at Hanscom AFB which abuts Minuteman National Park in Lexington MA). War came from the British regulars marching from Boston to confiscate arms suspected to be stored in Lexington and Concord. Washington had NOTHING to do with this.

2) I don't mean this to sound snarky, and I share your pride in Bush attacking Afghanistan (my position was always that, if Gore had won the election, he would have lobbed a few cruise missiles at some camps and declare the problem 'dealth with' - that was Bill Clinton's M.O. in many cases) - but are you proud of the trampling of the Constitution that was The U.S.A. P.A.T.R.I.O.T. Act? Mind you I agree with allowing law enforcement agencies to share intelligence - that was good - but warrantless wiretaps and holding people arrested ON AMERICAN SOIL without due process? (Among other things)

1) What Revolutionary War did YOU study? The first shots were fired a few miles from where I'm sitting right now (I work at Hanscom AFB which abuts Minuteman National Park in Lexington MA). War came from the British regulars marching from Boston to confiscate arms suspected to be stored in Lexington and Concord. Washington had NOTHING to do with this.

I guess we could argue who started the war. You are correct that on April 18,1775 General Gage, (British Army) marched to Lexington to seize the munitions stored by the Colonial militia at Concord. This may have been considered an "act of war" but who fired the first shot was the start of the war. However, and this is where there may be a discussion. On the morning of April 19, 1775 77 minutemen gathered on the village (not one in florida) green. Shot were then fired and the question is "who fired the first shots"? That would determine who technically started the war? It is an open question? Logic would say it was the minutemen protecting their munitions.
Regarding Washington's role. He did arrive in Boston on July 1775 to take over the colonial forces. I guess you could technically say he did not start the war but rather it began his participation after the village green conflict?

I totally disagree with any attempt to disregard the constitution and unfortunately I believe the current President has done this much more than the previous one. I believe the difference is noticable that the previous one did it to protect the citizens while the current one does it for political purposes. Does that make one better than the other? No if it violates our constitution. BUT any one of the terrorist's found on our soil are not/should not be protected by the Constitution since they are not part of an army and not part of a soverign nation and not a citizen of the US.

PennBF: Thanks for keeping it civil. Again, an honest question here. What violations of the Constitution are you referring to? You said the current violations were worse because they were politically motivated as opposed to what I was pointing out which were, paraphrasing you, security motivated.

Now I don't mean this in an accusatory way so forgive me if it sounds like this. But the reason that I ask about which Constitutional rights you're talking about is that I suspect it has to do with increasing Government agencies and taxing you/us to pay for them.

*IF* that is the case, then I disagree with you. Arguing over a little money and a few more beaureaucrats is *nothing* compared to our basic human rights. In all the years of "feature creep" I've seen in the U.S. government, I've never seen so many rights steamrolled in one fell swoop as with the Patriot Act. Think about it - warrantlass wiretaps. No-warrant arrests bypassing the special courts that were set up *specifically* to deal with time-sensitive cases (i.e. you didn't have time to get a warrant because of the danger involved - special court was designed to allow this so long as you 'got your paperwork' shortly thereafter). Gag orders on subpoenas (librarian can't even say they were served with one of these 'secret subpoenas'). Those are *police state* tactics. All in the name of "security". Heck a whole new HUGE Department of Homeland Security that now makes you take your shoes off at the airport! (Aren't you glad Richard Reid didn't stuff his bogus bomb in his pants!)

If I have misrepresented you, let me know. This is where I *feel* you're coming from and, if I'm wrong, I want to know where.

Abraham Lincoln suspended habeus corpus during the Civil War but it was reinstated. This was repeated in an abhorrent manner when Japanese Americans were interned in concentration camps during WWII. That is generally viewed as the worst human rights abuse in American history except for the treatment of Native American tribes. At least those incidents had an end-point (even Native Americans are winning in courts of law).

...and not that I think the government's "feature creep" is good. I just don't feel it's as bad as the above-mentioned examples. I'm reminded of Franklin's "those who trade liberty for security will neither deserve nor receive either".

djplong, You asked "What violations of the Constitution are you referring to? You said the current violations were worse because they were politically motivated."
In order to be responsive here is a partial list and not meant to represent all of his violations of our Constitution:
1. Moved to take the Census from Sec. of Commerce to Ram-bo Emanuel so he (Obama) could control voting numbers. This is right out of and smacks of Acorn.
(Article 1, Section 2 of Constitution)
2. Accepted/appointed himself Chariman of UN Security Council. (Sec 9). This is a clear violation of our Constitution. The President cannot accept this Chairmanship and also be President of US.
3. Article 1, Sec.9 restricts what he did in appointing Hillary Clinton to Sec. of State and providing pay increase.
4. Limiting compensation to Co's that accepted TARP. This power is not allowed per the Constitution.
5. Economic Stimulus package was another clear violation of the Constitution
6. Accepting Nobel Peace prize without Congress approval was a violation, (Sec 9).
These are just a few of the violations. None of these relate to protecting the Americans from a foreign power but rather are political in nature and to raise the office from what it was meant to be by our founders to a socialist profile.
This list is just a sample as there are many more that trash our Constitution in favor of a form of Socialism. As a very wise man said..If you want to see what socialism looks like visit the housing projects in the various large cities.

Originally Posted by PennBF

djplong, You asked "What violations of the Constitution are you referring to? You said the current violations were worse because they were politically motivated."
In order to be responsive here is a partial list and not meant to represent all of his violations of our Constitution:
1. Moved to take the Census from Sec. of Commerce to Ram-bo Emanuel so he (Obama) could control voting numbers. This is right out of and smacks of Acorn.
(Article 1, Section 2 of Constitution)
2. Accepted/appointed himself Chariman of UN Security Council. (Sec 9). This is a clear violation of our Constitution. The President cannot accept this Chairmanship and also be President of US.
3. Article 1, Sec.9 restricts what he did in appointing Hillary Clinton to Sec. of State and providing pay increase.
4. Limiting compensation to Co's that accepted TARP. This power is not allowed per the Constitution.
5. Economic Stimulus package was another clear violation of the Constitution
6. Accepting Nobel Peace prize without Congress approval was a violation, (Sec 9).
These are just a few of the violations. None of these relate to protecting the Americans from a foreign power but rather are political in nature and to raise the office from what it was meant to be by our founders to a socialist profile.
This list is just a sample as there are many more that trash our Constitution in favor of a form of Socialism. As a very wise man said..If you want to see what socialism looks like visit the housing projects in the various large cities.

HE'S BACK!!! Keedy is that you?