pay particular attention to those changes that include less coverage for treatments of the elderly...that would be most of us...there is a philosophy in the Obama team that proposes the elder of the USA don't really need all the care and treatment as they are closer to meeting thier maker and hence don't need as much as the younger, th poorer, the illegals, the minorities, etc.

The devil is in the details which the current administration is purposely short on.

One thing is certain, aging and the aged are not partisan attributes....eh?

BTK

Originally Posted by rshoffer

Remember the guy who cheated on his cancer riden wife as he was trying to become the Democratic nominee for president??? aka John Edwards.... he made his fortune suing physicians.

Your point?

Originally Posted by Guest

pay particular attention to those changes that include less coverage for treatments of the elderly...that would be most of us...there is a philosophy in the Obama team that proposes the elder of the USA don't really need all the care and treatment as they are closer to meeting thier maker and hence don't need as much as the younger, th poorer, the illegals, the minorities, etc.

The devil is in the details which the current administration is purposely short on.

One thing is certain, aging and the aged are not partisan attributes....eh?

BTK

I don't believe the comment "there is a philosophy in the Obama team that proposes the elder of the USA don't really need all the care and treatment as they are closer to meeting thier maker and hence don't need as much as the younger, th poorer, the illegals, the minorities, etc." is accurate.
There are in fact decisions that should be addressed regarding care. Not to belabour the point, but how many are aware, or willing to be aware of some of the practices we have in health care?
There are tens of thousands of people well beyond 70 that are severly demented, completely bedbound, suffering from multiple comorbidities such as diabetes, coronary artety disease, cancer, chronic bedsores and others that are kept "alive" with surgically placed feeding tubes because they can no longer function at the most basic levels. Many if not most of these people will have multiple hopsitalizations in their last year of life, including ICU care and even artificial ventilation. For the overwhelining majority these interventions are simply minimally life prolonging. Realize that up to 30 percent of ALL mediacre dollars are spent on the last year of life. Realize that if you arrest over the age of 70, even in the hospital with access to quick care your chances of ever leaving the hospital alive, much less surviving at one year out are dismall. Your chances of being "kept alive" with all of the technology we have, perhaps for weeks in the ICU with little or no change in the ultimate outcome are pretty high unless you EXPLICITLY spell out your wishes to your family.
Should we be spending money and putting people through things that we know will not appreciably change their outcomes? Should we resucitate terminally ill patients when they arrest knowing that they have weeks, or at best months to live? Is it morally and ethically the right thing to do?
These are some of the tough questions facing us, questions that european and other countries have long since addressed on different levels. Besides the moral/ethical dilemma of putting people through this, there is a cost associated with it well into the billions. At what time do we aquiesce to God's time clock?
I believe these are some of the questions being brought foward. Not a pan-withdrawl of care from the elderly, and certainly not so we can provide more care for those dastardly illegals, poor, and minorities.
These are not societaly pleasing questions but they do need to be addressed. If you really want to go through this how long should you be able to? At what point is it ok for the doctor to say to the family "I will not put your mother/grandmother through this pain and discomfort anymore?"

As an aside if you don't (or do) want to go through these things YOU MUST SPELL OUT YOUR WISHES. Cookbook living wills are rarely worth the paper they are written on due to their general terms, and to the families that refuse to honor them as the patient desired. Yes, make an advanced directive and be EXPLICIT in what you do and don't want done. Do you want to be resucitated(brought back if you arrest)..being shocked, chest compressions, having a tube placed in your throat and placed on a ventilator, having a tube put in to feed you, receiving IV fluids if that is all that is keeping you alive? Not the easiest things to address with family but make your wishes known so they can be honored. And for the love of God appoint someone that you trust, and that you know loves you and knows and will respect your wishes as your MEDICAL POWER OF ATTORNEY. I cannot begin to tell you the strife and conflicted ethics resulting because people don't take the time to do this. If your doctor has not mentioned it you mention it to him.

and there are far too many individuals and families that will not address the real issue of living wills and their impact.

An area I would have focus placed upon first is the obvious abuse of the system. There are many more billions being paid to doctors/hospitals/health care providers that are nothing but greed fleecing a system that allows it.

This category alone will relent sufficient $$$ to more worthy needs than these medical professional "medicare perps".

BTK

This is a very good point about the Medical Power of Attorney. My husband and I have this. It's not easy to have to talk about and face these issues, but after caring for my Dad for almost 20 years, I realized some things just have to be faced head on.

On a lighter note, my hubby said I am a softie and would let him hang on forever and I'm afraid he'll pull the plug on me if I nap too long!

You are missing a very important point. You are talking about the most extreme cases. Soon as you give government decisions over live and death, treatment or no treatment, the standards will slowly be lowered over time

First it will be those "kept alive with surgically placed feeding tubes" denied care. Next it my be those over 80 who get cancer. Then it may be those over 70 who get cancer. Next it may be your wife or your husband.

Trust me when I say just like social security the standards will start to change and the only difference is, limits will go down instead of up.

I've heard the pro abortion folks say a million times. "Its between a woman and her doctor." Guess that only counts for abortions and not keeping people alive.

As the money gets tighter, the care for the elderly will get less.

I don't know about you but it scares the hell out of me thinking the government will have a part in making those decisions.

It's up to God when it's your time to go not the government.

Originally Posted by dklassen

You are missing a very important point. You are talking about the most extreme cases. Soon as you give government decisions over live and death, treatment or no treatment, the standards will slowly be lowered over time

First it will be those "kept alive with surgically placed feeding tubes" denied care. Next it my be those over 80 who get cancer. Then it may be those over 70 who get cancer. Next it may be your wife or your husband.

Trust me when I say just like social security the standards will start to change and the only difference is, limits will go down instead of up.

I've heard the pro abortion folks say a million times. "Its between a woman and her doctor." Guess that only counts for abortions and not keeping people alive.

As the money gets tighter, the care for the elderly will get less.

I don't know about you but it scares the hell out of me thinking the government will have a part in making those decisions.

It's up to God when it's your time to go not the government.

It could be the government. But it already is between you and the insurance companies who can deny coverage.

Originally Posted by Guest

and there are far too many individuals and families that will not address the real issue of living wills and their impact.

An area I would have focus placed upon first is the obvious abuse of the system. There are many more billions being paid to doctors/hospitals/health care providers that are nothing but greed fleecing a system that allows it.

This category alone will relent sufficient $$$ to more worthy needs than these medical professional "medicare perps".

BTK

Actually if one addresses the outrageous administrative costs....over 30% of all healthcare costs in the USA, and the plethora of unwarranted tests done for liability concerns( you cannot imagine the likely billlions from this), and the above examples of innapropriate care ,the percieved fleecing by doctors and hospitals pales in comparison. Not that it is tolerable in any instance but in my experience (mostly not for profit and teaching hospitals, and private practice) the majority of these people and institutions struggle within the current system to honestly make a living and take care of patients.
Not sure was a professional medicare perp is?
I do appreciate the space to get out the word on living wills/advanced directives though..please listen, that little form they give you at the hospital is not adaquate.
Chels, I would invest in a lot of espresso if I were you!

It could be the government. But it already is between you and the insurance companies who can deny coverage.

I'll take my chances with the insurance company.

Originally Posted by dklassen

You are missing a very important point. You are talking about the most extreme cases. Soon as you give government decisions over live and death, treatment or no treatment, the standards will slowly be lowered over time

First it will be those "kept alive with surgically placed feeding tubes" denied care. Next it my be those over 80 who get cancer. Then it may be those over 70 who get cancer. Next it may be your wife or your husband.

Trust me when I say just like social security the standards will start to change and the only difference is, limits will go down instead of up.

I've heard the pro abortion folks say a million times. "Its between a woman and her doctor." Guess that only counts for abortions and not keeping people alive.

As the money gets tighter, the care for the elderly will get less.

I don't know about you but it scares the hell out of me thinking the government will have a part in making those decisions.

It's up to God when it's your time to go not the government.

I can assure I am not missing the point and I can further assure you I am not talking about the most extreme cases. This is a large and ever growing issue as the demographics of our society show bigger shifts toward the aging of our population with more to come. Equating it with abortion is simply more sensationalism and does not address the issues above. "Keeping people alive" is one of the issues at the very essense of the discussion here. The definition of "living" seems to vary (from simply a beating heart sustainable only by massive amounts of drugs and support to actually viable existence). SO often patients are left to languish on extraordinary support measure likely causing intense discomfort up until the moment of death because either the physician is to uncomfortable to broach the subject or because the family refuses to.
I don't believe for a minute the people of this country or the goverment are looking for wholesale culling of the elderly population by witholding care.
Ultimately it is up to God when it is your time to go, not the government or anyone else. I also think that God gives us intelligence, knowledge and choice to some extent as to how we partcipate in that process.

Equating it with abortion is simply more sensationalism and does not address the issues above.

Call it what you want but it's still true. Life is life and when you start defining levels of it, you're on a very slippery slope in my opinion... for the young or old.

Originally Posted by dklassen

Call it what you want but it's still true. Life is life and when you start defining levels of it, you're on a very slippery slope in my opinion... for the young or old.

Its not true in that context nor is it that simple. There are "levels" of life or existence and putting our heads in the sand and not recognizing that and dealing with it does the biggest diservice of all to the patients affected.
The technology alone afforded us in this day and age requires we be educated about and discuss the ramifications of our actions and decisions in healthcare.
When you get right down to it these decisions are made or affected by a variety of entities, public and private, and have been for some time.
This not a party depenent issue, but one of greed and beuracracy on many levels, both public and private in nature.

Point is, if we get as cavalier about the elderly as we do with the unborn, tell me where that will lead? Bottom line, If the government gets yet more control over the process the outcome will not be a good one. Health care should be left to the private sector. I work in the private sector health care industry and good things are coming if the government doesn't screw it up first.

Originally Posted by dklassen

Point is, if we get as cavalier about the elderly as we do with the unborn, tell me where that will lead? Bottom line, If the government gets yet more control over the process the outcome will not be a good one. Health care should be left to the private sector. I work in the private sector health care industry and good things are coming if the government doesn't screw it up first.

I work in the private sector health care industry and would like to know where and when these good things are coming, and where they have been. The system has been in decline for decades and is grinding to a halt...bottom line.
Linking abortion to this holds no water and is tantamount to fanning the fires of fear IMHO. The only possible link I can see is that the individual decision about about abortion is a personal moral and spiritual decision since there is no definable point of when life occurs from a scientific standpoint, much as is the decision on when the time for stopping certain interventions is in some instances.That discussion could go on indefinatley for exactly that reason.
The present powers at be in health care have had a long time to show how well they can run our healthcare system, and internationally accepted measures of success show we are failing dismally given the dollars we spend.

Our health care system is certainly not grinding to a halt. We still have the best health care in the world and that's a fact.

Name one thing the government does well? Except spend money... In fact most things they totally screw up. The reason why our health care has been in decline is BECAUSE of the government, yet you still seek them out for the fix.

More and more employers are providing on-site occupational heath and pharmacy services for their employees at extremely low cost or even free in some cases.

Walgreens are putting in Take Care Health Clinics in more and more of their stores everyday, where anyone 7 days a week can walk in and get primary care with or without insurance for them and their families. I think a visit costs about $40 and they are expanding their range of services daily. Their mission statement is to change the face of health care in America. CVS is doing the same thing. Even now a lot of pharmacies give away free antibiotics.

The key is competition and TORT reform. Punish the lawyers, not our private health care system. The government talks about spending billions on modernizing electronic patient records (EMR) Well guess what? We have already been doing that in the private sector with no government help and we are far beyond them in that technology. Are we there yet? No, but we are getting there very quickly.

What does Obama want to do? Tax the crap out of the very companies that have already been moving forward in these areas of health care technology. If the government steps in we'll see nothing but lower standards, rationed care and a shortage of medical professionals.

Talk to someone that lives with socialized medicine and ask them how long they have to wait for an MRI.

I'm sure what I say basically falls on deaf ears when so many have been conditioned to believe our savior is the government for all things in life.