Originally Posted by dklassen

Our health care system is certainly not grinding to a halt. We still have the best health care in the world and that's a fact.

Name one thing the government does well? Except spend money... In fact most things they totally screw up. The reason why our health care has been in decline is BECAUSE of the government, yet you still seek them out for the fix.

More and more employers are providing on-site occupational heath and pharmacy services for their employees at extremely low cost or even free in some cases.

Walgreens are putting in Take Care Health Clinics in more and more of their stores everyday, where anyone 7 days a week can walk in and get primary care with or without insurance for them and their families. I think a visit costs about $40 and they are expanding their range of services daily. Their mission statement is to change the face of health care in America. CVS is doing the same thing. Even now a lot of pharmacies give away free antibiotics.

The key is competition and TORT reform. Punish the lawyers, not our private health care system. The government talks about spending billions on modernizing electronic patient records (EMR) Well guess what? We have already been doing that in the private sector with no government help and we are far beyond them in that technology. Are we there yet? No, but we are getting there very quickly.

What does Obama want to do? Tax the crap out of the very companies that have already been moving forward in these areas of health care technology. If the government steps in we'll see nothing but lower standards, rationed care and a shortage of medical professionals.

Talk to someone that lives with socialized medicine and ask them how long they have to wait for an MRI.

I'm sure what I say basically falls on deaf ears when so many have been conditioned to believe our savior is the government for all things in life.

"We still have the best health care in the world and that's a fact." Actually not a fact, we are well behind in many categories including infant mortality and adjusted life expectancy, ranking in the forties on each. Couple that with the fact that we spend more per capita than any other country in the world for those mediacore results as measured by internationally accepted standards and the insult worsens. It is about outcomes, not how many doc-the boxes or MRI machines we have. Your part of the healthcare system might not be grinding to a halt but it certainly is for millions. I see them in the e.r. because they cant afford the office visits and the medicines and the preventive care so they wait until they have the heart attack, stroke, or advanced cancer and have to be seen on an emergent basis to get care.
"Name one thing the government does well? Except spend money... In fact most things they totally screw up. The reason why our health care has been in decline is BECAUSE of the government, yet you still seek them out for the fix." Our healthcare is in decline for a number of reasons, some of which you address but make no mistake, one of the outstanding reasons we are in decline is the HMO's PPO's, every other O, and the greed that drives not only rationing of care but the out of control liability and lottery system. Obscene levels of profits and bonuses while procedures, medicines and hospital stays are routinely denied to maintain those profits in the norm now. Dropping thiose that have long held insurance as soon as they get HIV or cancer is the norm now. The visit you use as an example...from a mid level practitioner in most cases, is the begining, next comes the cost of the medicines, therapy, and/or procedures that have to be be done to complete the visit. Now you are easily up into the hundreds.
"The key is competition and TORT reform. Punish the lawyers, not our private health care system. The government talks about spending billions on modernizing electronic patient records (EMR) Well guess what? We have already been doing that in the private sector with no government help and we are far beyond them in that technology. Are we there yet? No, but we are getting there very quickly." I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of tort rform though I doubt it will occur in a meaningful way beacause the same legal lobby that rapes the system every day is the same one making the laws as they relate to medicine.. Where else can people make easy money with frivolous claims and essentially legaized extortion? The private sectors EMR?? Rudimentry at best. There is no gold standard, no standardization of systems so that they can communicate, and the notes and information generated by the cookbook templates is only good for maximizing billing potential at this point by making sure all the boxes are checked. Physicians dread getting the records from other offices for these reasons. As an aside, most people recognize that the VA of all places has probably one of the more useful and advanced systems as shown by improvements in patient outcomes.
"What does Obama want to do? Tax the crap out of the very companies that have already been moving forward in these areas of health care technology. If the government steps in we'll see nothing but lower standards, rationed care and a shortage of medical professionals." We have had low standards, rationed care, and a dramatic shortage of medical professionals for a while now that is getting precipitously worse. NO ONE wants to go into primary care anymore, a cursory examination of statistics for those entering residencies associated with primary care shows steady declines and projected shortages which, while not receiving the bulk of press right now are going to be catastrophic. I know, I live and work within the system every day.
"Talk to someone that lives with socialized medicine and ask them how long they have to wait for an MRI." The old "how long does it take to get (fill in the blank)" just doesn't address the issue anymore, its a tired argument based in fear of not getting what we feel we need right this minute. For every one of those people there is at least one other in the system that are well satisfied with their care as evidenced by those from Canada (for instance) that post on this board.
This is not some BS political argument about "the savior", it is about honestly recognizing the severe problems we as a nation have in healthcare and being willing to address them, and that will mean changing our perceptions about what we deliver, how we do it, and what is appropriate to deliver.

Is that why people from all over the world come here when they need the best health care.. or care they can't get elsewhere? Is that why we provide our medical services all over the world to other countries that don't have the technology or the skill we do? Is that why doctors come from all over the world to practice medicine here?

But I digress. The government will fix it. After all, they are so skillful at administering programs, cutting costs and raising the level of service. Oh and BTW, who's going to pay for it all?

Been to a DMV lately or tried to get a building permit?

It's not about anectdotal stories, its about about outcomes measured with objective criteria. All the sarcasm and anger in the world doesn't change that.

Oh, and by the way, we already pay for it in a ineffeciant system filled with waste and inneffeciency.

It's not about sarcasm or anger. It's about the truth.

The government has been a miserable failure at running programs not to mention their own budgets. Just look at our public school system. They are a total mess and getting worse by the year. SS and medicare are all but bankrupt. Now the government is taking steps to nationalize our economy, banks, private industry and health care.

Are you really at peace with that?

its about about outcomes measured with objective criteria

And how has the government be doing with that so far? F-

Originally Posted by dklassen

It's not about sarcasm or anger. It's about the truth.

The government has been a miserable failure at running programs not to mention their own budgets. Just look at our public school system. They are a total mess and getting worse by the year. SS and medicare are all but bankrupt. Now the government is taking steps to nationalize our economy, banks, private industry and health care.

Are you really at peace with that?



And how has the government be doing with that so far?

If I recall, I never indicated I was at peace with any of it. What I did do was relate objective, true information regarding our healthcare system or lack thereof.

This thread wasn't about the current state of our health care or it's issues, it's about government takeover of our health care system and their rather shocking admissions about how they view future care for the elderly, which to me is a moral issue.

If you feel our current system is so rotten, maybe that's a new topic.

Originally Posted by dklassen

This thread wasn't about the current state of our health care or it's issues, it's about government takeover of our health care system and their rather shocking admissions about how they view future care for the elderly, which to me is a moral issue.

If you feel our current system is so rotten, maybe that's a new topic.

Again your incessent need to extrapolate and try to put words into someones mouth clouds things. Never said it was rotten.

Additionally, seems this thread has been about a lot of things including but not limited to tort reform, tax reform, abortion, medical POA's, decisions on the appropriateness of treatment in certain situations,and nationalizing the banks and private industry.

Sorry, I embellished. You did say our health care system was grinding to a halt among other things. If were true, to me that would be pretty rotten for all of us. Thus the word rotton.

I hate that it is, and I do feel that's rotten for the people of this country. It's just that in my experience people tend to see things based on thier own experiences (of course). The people that are fortunate enough to have good coverage and don't want the boat rocked are often not familiar with so much of the information (and much much more) I attempted to relate here. And in the beginning of the thread I really did address, I think, the OP.
Recognizing the flaws and continued degradation of the system does not amount to a blanket condemnation, nor does it pigeon hole me in a certain political idealogy. It is a field I love and sacrifice for and have for years. I also feel it comes with some responsibility to show the other side of the coin.

I've lived in countries with socialized medicine. No thanks!!!

Originally Posted by Sally Jo

I've lived in countries with socialized medicine. No thanks!!!

Thanx for the input Sally Jo, could you tell some of what has led to you feeling this way.

Thanx in advance.

Thanks and I appreciate that. I just feel that health care is a privilege not a right. It's something you have to earn and pay for. It's not that I don't care about those who go without but life isn't always fair. Does everyone have a right to health care? Many would say yes I suppose. Ok, who pays for it?

How far down the rabbit hole shall we go? What if they can't afford a car to get to their doctors appointment? Should the government (aka: us) buy them a car, bus or cab fare? What about if they can't afford food or a home? Should we all pay for that? I think we've been trying that and so far it's not working very well.

Remember the war on poverty and the trillions of dollars transferred from person to person over the last 50 years? Well, we still have poverty and people with out health care.

It's nice to help people, but tax money isn't an unlimited supply and that's what pays the bills. How much can you tax people before they stop producing as much? How much can you cap prices before people will no longer pursue that profession? How about if the government caps your salary? What incentive will you have to grow?

Our current government is working towards spreading the misery instead of spreading opportunity.

It really goes back to our roots. You may be surprised to know but the first pilgrim settlements in America were basically socialist in design. Everyone worked for the common store and everyone took an equal share. What they ended up with was producers and non-producers. The producers got tired of providing for the non-producers and basically everyone ended up starving without enough food and provisions.

It wasn't until they divided up the land and gave each person a plot and told them they were on their own. The first capitalism in America. Soon after that commerce was born and the pilgrims started to prosper... except for non-producers.

I feel it's is very similar today. We have some who prosper and some that don't. Now the government seeks to try and level the playing field by taking from producers and giving to non-producers. I realize it's not that black and white today but the model still holds true.

I work my butt off, 70 hours a week and why the hell do I have to pay for others cars, health care and everything else. The only money government has to spend is what they collect in taxes from us.

You simply can't provide everything for everyone and be all things to all people. At some point you have to fend for yourself. Fair or not fair it does not work and it cannot work. Health care should be left in the private sector and I'll end my comments with that.

Originally Posted by dklassen

Thanks and I appreciate that. I just feel that health care is a privilege not a right. It's something you have to earn and pay for. It's not that I don't care about those who go without but life isn't always fair. Does everyone have a right to health care? Many would say yes I suppose. Ok, who pays for it?

How far down the rabbit hole shall we go? What if they can't afford a car to get to their doctors appointment? Should the government (aka: us) buy them a car, bus or cab fare? What about if they can't afford food or a home? Should we all pay for that? I think we've been trying that and so far it's not working very well.

Remember the war on poverty and the trillions of dollars transferred from person to person over the last 50 years? Well, we still have poverty and people with out health care.

It's nice to help people, but tax money isn't an unlimited supply and that's what pays the bills. How much can you tax people before they stop producing as much? How much can you cap prices before people will no longer pursue that profession? How about if the government caps your salary? What incentive will you have to grow?

Our current government is working towards spreading the misery instead of spreading opportunity.

It really goes back to our roots. You may be surprised to know but the first pilgrim settlements in America were basically socialist in design. Everyone worked for the common store and everyone took an equal share. What they ended up with was producers and non-producers. The producers got tired of providing for the non-producers and basically everyone ended up starving without enough food and provisions.

It wasn't until they divided up the land and gave each person a plot and told them they were on their own. The first capitalism in America. Soon after that commerce was born and the pilgrims started to prosper... except for non-producers.

I feel it's is very similar today. We have some who prosper and some that don't. Now the government seeks to try and level the playing field by taking from producers and giving to non-producers. I realize it's not that black and white today but the model still holds true.

I work my butt off, 70 hours a week and why the hell do I have to pay for others cars, health care and everything else. The only money government has to spend is what they collect in taxes from us.

You simply can't provide everything for everyone and be all things to all people. At some point you have to fend for yourself. Fair or not fair it does not work and it cannot work. Health care should be left in the private sector and I'll end my comments with that.

We will have to just agree to disagree. In my book health care is not on a par with cars busses and cab fare, and I suspect many feel that way...just my supposition though. The "fair or not" proviso seems to hold well for a lot of people until they are in a position of having no way to afford healthcare, or until their parents or children are impacted by it.
The fact is health care is different, and there are some moral and ethical considerations that go beyond those cars, cab fares etc. When you have to look at the 75 year old that comes in bleeding from her brain because she couldn't afford her blood pressure medicines it colors you. When you look at the man that had a lifesaving cardiac catheterization and stent placed last year when he had insurance, only to have it clog off because he lost his insurance he could no longer afford the 300 dollar a month medication to keep it open, it changes you. When you see people lucky enough to have elective joint replacements as compared to the old man or lady relegated to being a shut in because one hip or knee is so eroded and painful as to preclude walking it changes one's awareness.
If health care left to the private sector worked so well we would not have the catastrophe we see now. If you are not in the catastrophe it is often hard to appreciate it.
Looking at better ways to provide comprehesive availibility of healthcare does guarantee we on are the slippery slope to unabashed socialism (for whatever that term is worth). It simply means we as a country have decided that some things are that important, healthcare being the prime example.
Again, I submit that culling the administative overhead, severely weeding out beuracracy, putting the brakes on malpractice, and making pragmatic choices about what we provide and when would provide much of the "how do we pay for it answers".

Originally Posted by serenityseeker

We will have to just agree to disagree. In my book health care is not on a par with cars busses and cab fare, and I suspect many feel that way...just my supposition though. The "fair or not" proviso seems to hold well for a lot of people until they are in a position of having no way to afford healthcare, or until their parents or children are impacted by it.
The fact is health care is different, and there are some moral and ethical considerations that go beyond those cars, cab fares etc. When you have to look at the 75 year old that comes in bleeding from her brain because she couldn't afford her blood pressure medicines it colors you. When you look at the man that had a lifesaving cardiac catheterization and stent placed last year when he had insurance, only to have it clog off because he lost his insurance he could no longer afford the 300 dollar a month medication to keep it open, it changes you. When you see people lucky enough to have elective joint replacements as compared to the old man or lady relegated to being a shut in because one hip or knee is so eroded and painful as to preclude walking it changes one's awareness.
If health care left to the private sector worked so well we would not have the catastrophe we see now. If you are not in the catastrophe it is often hard to appreciate it.
Looking at better ways to provide comprehesive availibility of healthcare does guarantee we on are the slippery slope to unabashed socialism (for whatever that term is worth). It simply means we as a country have decided that some things are that important, healthcare being the prime example.
Again, I submit that culling the administative overhead, severely weeding out beuracracy, putting the brakes on malpractice, and making pragmatic choices about what we provide and when would provide much of the "how do we pay for it answers".

And to be clear, we have universal coverage on a lot of things, it is called the emergency room. It is just a horribly ineffective way to do it, and costs much much more in the long run. It is a matter of semantics to a great degree...lets retool what we have, what we are already spending and wasting on, doesnt matter to me if you call it socailism or Fred.

Oops, screwed up on the post.

To SERENITYSEEKER and DKLASSEN

Thanks to both of you for a lively and very informative discussion !!!

This kind of discussion is what makes a message board on politics and such a great thing....very informative to all !!

Thanks again to both of you !!