Tal: That's all well and good, but maybe we're a little gun shy after the American public has twice voted in a man that say's Jesus speaks directly to him, ergo the Iraq War -- George W. Bush. Asylums are filled to the brim with people saying that Jesus is speaking directly to them. I have an absolute belief in the division of Church and State. What happened for the last 8 years?

Originally Posted by chelsea24

Tal: That's all well and good, but maybe we're a little gun shy after the American public has twice voted in a man that say's Jesus speaks directly to him, ergo the Iraq War -- George W. Bush. Asylums are filled to the brim with people saying that Jesus is speaking directly to them. I have an absolute belief in the division of Church and State. What happened for the last 8 years?

How does God speak to Bush, Chelsea24? He speaks to me through the beauty of his creations like the caress of a woman, the waves of the ocean acting on a beach, and many sunsets.

President Bush is a creature of the religious right or so it seems. Hopefully, if McCain gets in he can take us more towards what the US Constitution seems to hold with respect to a wall between Church and State. Obama or Clinton would probably stick to the same tenet of the US Constitution. There is going to be a problem with the current US Supreme Court though as they seem to be now in the camp of the religious right.

I think I'll stick with George Bush's premise of God speaking to directly to him as opposed to Bill Clinton's voices coming to him form under his desk. Who knows where Hillary's or Barack's voices will come from. I'm not trying to start a debate, only adding to the thread.
Cheers from wet Missouri. :bigthumbsup:

Tal: Yes, I believe God is felt and seen everywhere we look. But I don't believe he speaks directly in our ears. Sorry. I can't and won't trust a man with his finger on the little red button that can say "I, uh, was listening to my iPod the other day and Jesus came through and said, 'Go ahead George, push that button'". What's that all about? We might as well have elected The Son of Sam. No! I stand firmly on the division of Church and State. But, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for this conversation:

What Jesus Might Say
to George W. Bush
by Sanderson Beck
GEORGE W: Dear Lord Jesus, I need your help. Things are not going well. Please listen to me.

JESUS: I always listen to you, George, but until now you have not been listening to me very well.

GEORGE W: I'm sorry, Lord. I try.

JESUS: I thought it was especially disgraceful when you implied that I told you to go to war against the people of Iraq. How could you do that? Do not people call me the Prince of Peace?

GEORGE W: Yes, Lord, you are the Prince of Peace.

JESUS: Did I not teach that we should love our enemies?

GEORGE W: Yes, I remember that now.

JESUS: George, I love you like a son or a brother, but you have strayed very far from my teachings. You have been responsible for much killing - first in Texas with all those executions, and some of them were innocent, - and then in the world with your wars. Why do you help the greedy instead of the needy? Why do you give big tax reductions to the rich while cutting the programs that help the poor? Does not every person in your country and in the world deserve good health care? Remember, when you help the poorest people, you are helping me.

You're absolutely right. Besides, I don't think it was God speaking in Bush's ear...

It was probably Dick Cheney!

As for Obama's statements. I think he needed to come out and deal with this situation, and I think he did an excellent job of doing so.

As an independent voter, I for one have still not made up my mind as to who gets my vote. However, I will not vote for the status quo. The religious zealots from both the right and left have no place in our politics, any more than the white or black racists, who would rather have everyone thinking like they do, because "God spoke to them".

Having just watched Obama's speech, I was impressed. I found it very believable, not just the usual political posturing of most politicians.

Speeches make me nervous. There are the writers, editors, elocution coaches, teleprompter operators and 'advisors' who are all party to the speech. I'm never sure when it's the real thing or one great stage show. Senator Obama is an excellent orator, but so are several other senators, members of the House, and 20% of the Scree Actors Guild. The best orator may not be the most skillful leader.

It takes more than a well-staged speech to get my vote, regardless of which of the three members of the Select 100 is holding the microphone at the moment. A lot more substance of what one plans to do - in detail - with the why's and how's and when would be nice. Otherwise, it's a beauty contest akin to Miss America.

SteveZ, I agree with you 100%. However, history shows us that all good leaders were good orators. All we have to do is look at some of our past presidents that most people think about when it come to leadership and their skill at communicating. Lincoln, Franklin, Kennedy, Reagan, Clinton (conservatives would probably disagree). Now having said this, I would first say that all good orators may not necessarily be a good leader. But we have all seen what happens when the person we put into office can't put two words together with out screwing something up. I won't say who I'm talking about but his initials are GWB.

It is well noted that Obama refused and did not have a speech writer for this and did this speech against the advise of his advisors. I think he did it from the heart and I think he did an excellent job. Now if you like to speak about orators, here's someone who will take us right down the Bush path again . . .

JERUSALEM - Senator John McCain’s trip overseas was supposed to highlight his foreign policy acumen, and his supporters hoped that it would showcase him in a series of statesmanlike meetings with world leaders throughout the Middle East and Europe while the Democratic candidates continued to squabble back home.

But all did not go according to plan on Tuesday in Amman, Jordan, when Mr. McCain, fresh from a visit to Iraq, misidentified some of the main players in the Iraq war.

Mr. McCain said several times in his visit to Jordan — in a news conference and in a radio interview — that he was concerned that Iran was training Al Qaeda in Iraq. The United States believes that Iran, a Shiite country, has been training and financing Shiite extremists in Iraq, but not Al Qaeda, which is a Sunni insurgent group.

I think McCain should have had that straight before he decided to run for President. Just my opinion.

I'd like to see the video tapes of the sermons we HAVEN'T seen yet???
Hope more video is somehow released in the near future.
Perhaps we haven't seen the best yet!!!!

:dontknow: What good would that really do? The pastor is not running for President.

Before we judge too harshly Obama's relationship with his Pastor, think back at how many friends or family members have you forsaken because of a slur or bad joke related to ones race, sex, creed or sexual preference. Its hard to make good friends and its hard to separate from them sometime even when we know it's the right thing to do.

It would be quite another thing, if some video is uncovered that showed Obama using the same inflammatory language ???

I don't judge Senator Obama's relationship with his pastor at all. If I were judged by the comments and/or actions of some of my lifelong friends, they'd probably want to take me to Starke and yank 'Old Sparky' out of the storage shed.

What goes on in someone's house of worship is that person's private business, not something to be dragged out into public scrutiny, no matter how much others may take offense to the language, service content or activity.

If I have any gripe with Senator Obama, it has nothing to do with how he worships the Creator, if he worships at all, where he worships, or who may be his spiritual adviser(s).

Freedom of religion is just that.

Until such time as the clergyman in question is arrested for inciting to riot, or anything like that, the clergyman is simply exercising his First Amendment right of free speech and Senator Obama is exercising his First Amendment right regarding freedom of religion.

We may not like the dialogue that we have been given privilege to hear, but the freedoms granted by the US Constitution cannot be selectively exercised - it's all or nothing. I can't remember ('senior moment!') who said, " I may not like what you said, but I'll defend with my life your right to say it." It's just how I feel.

Other strings get into various election topics, and I'll put my 2-cents worth into those. This one to me is cut-and-dried, and while its easy to get into this matter, it's also dangerous.

Originally Posted by SteveZ

I don't judge Senator Obama's relationship with his pastor at all. If I were judged by the comments and/or actions of some of my lifelong friends, they'd probably want to take me to Starke and yank 'Old Sparky' out of the storage shed.

Yeah, if you were running for president and had no track record of accomplishments on which to base your supposed credentials and you stated that these friends had for 20 years been your spiritual guides and you had them on your campaign staff, you should be judged somewhat by their beliefs and actions. And it that led to a trip to Starke and a visit with Ol Sparky, so be it.

Someone asked what will they dig up next about Obama. It could be a real blockbuster, and is only now making the rounds among the conservative commentators. This is the same route that the story re his pastor took before it was picked up by the mainstream media.
Obama supposedly has an ongoing "friendship" with two members of the "Weathermen/Weather Underground", a radical group of domestic terrorists from the 1970s, responsible for bombings, bank robberies and various conspiracies to destroy government facilities. The individuals, William Ahres and Bernadette Dohrn (not sure of the spellings) are now activist professors at a Chicago college. According to the commentators that I have heard, Ahres is defiantly unapologetic regarding his youthful illegalities.
The relationship between Obama and the lefty revolutionaries has not been spelled out in the accounts that I have heard, but if it is personal and substantial, disclosure could be quite embarassing, in my opinion. The republicans would be best served by asking the media to cap this info for the time being & then use it as an "October Surprise" in the event that Obama wins the nomination and runs against McCain.