Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

Yep, Teamsters negotiate with UPS...two different entities. Government union negotiates with the government...basically with themselves?!?

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

Originally Posted by Loveithere

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

and while the age to retire and collect from SS continues to rise, government union contracts shackle the taxpayer to payout the retired worker after their 30years...
How is their "pot" protected and our SS "pot" is drained to other unrelated projects? By "confiscating" my money and putting it into SS, hasn't the Federal government by default entered into a contract with me?

Originally Posted by RichieLion

The public employee's work has no relation to money being earned, so they have no personal stake in anything. They don't produce the revenue that pays their salaries, as in the private sector.

They're like children on an allowance. They never see any correlation between their pay and any shortage of state revenue. They want theirs and that's that.

but richielion - what does produce the revenue that pays their salaries? take a look at any state budget....taxes, fines, penalties, grants, licenses, fees, etc! property taxes from the private sector are but a small portion of any state's revenue sources! so it is not fair, nor is it accurate to say that the private sector pays the salaries of public employees. a state treasurer takes a pile of money that came from all revenue sources and funds salary and benefit accounts as appropriated by the legislature.

public sector employees see the correlation between their salary and state revenue every time there is an increase in property tax, gas tax, boating and motor vehicle and fishing license fees, sales tax, tobacco tax, inspection fees and realty transfer fees, yada, yada, yada.

the public and private sector employee each pay the same taxes and increases...the private sector resents that the public sector gets some of that money back as salary and health insurance covg and they only get a homestead rebate for property tax relief.

Originally Posted by njbchbum

but richielion - what does produce the revenue that pays their salaries? take a look at any state budget....taxes, fines, penalties, grants, licenses, fees, etc! property taxes from the private sector are but a small portion of any state's revenue sources! so it is not fair, nor is it accurate to say that the private sector pays the salaries of public employees. a state treasurer takes a pile of money that came from all revenue sources and funds salary and benefit accounts as appropriated by the legislature.

public sector employees see the correlation between their salary and state revenue every time there is an increase in property tax, gas tax, boating and motor vehicle and fishing license fees, sales tax, tobacco tax, inspection fees and realty transfer fees, yada, yada, yada.

the public and private sector employee each pay the same taxes and increases...the private sector resents that the public sector gets some of that money back as salary and health insurance covg and they only get a homestead rebate for property tax relief.

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

snipped
It is sad that these people are leading others, and that others are willing enough to follow blindly

katxpajamas -
not all employees/union members are so willing...to even join, much less follow. perhaps it is sad in a right to work state; but n.j. is not one of those states.

in n.j., if your work site/unit is 'represented', the employee is required to either pay the full dues requirement and thus have the right to vote on a contract. or they can pay a partial dues and not have the right to vote. the second example is based on the fact that they are an employee who will benefit from the negotiations of the representatives, and must, therfore, contribute to that effort of the representative. the partial dues payment is not intended to pay for any political activity of the representative.

and union membership and representation is further complicated by employees who are considered 'confidential' employees..employees whose responsibilities could be compromised by union membership. those employees pay no union dues but are bound by the limite of the collective bargaining agreement. they do not have the right to negotiate even for themselves.

what is sad in n.j. is that if there is a union where you work - you must join.

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

Federal Times
9/7/2009
"The U.S. Postal Service, struggling with a massive deficit caused by plummeting mail volume, spends more than a million dollars each week to pay thousands of employees to sit in empty rooms and do nothing.

It's a practice called "standby time," and it has existed for years — but postal employees say it was rarely used until this year. Now, postal officials say, the agency is averaging about 45,000 hours of standby time every week — the equivalent of having 1,125 full-time employees sitting idle, at a cost of more than $50 million per year.

Mail volume is down 12.6 percent compared with last year, and many postal supervisors simply don't have enough work to keep all employees busy. But a thicket of union rules prevents managers from laying off excess employees; a recent agreement with the unions, in fact, temporarily prevents the Postal Service from even reassigning them to other facilities that could use them.

So they sit — some for a few hours, others for entire shifts. Postal union officials estimate some 15,000 employees have spent time on standby this year.

They spend their days holed up in rooms — conference rooms, break rooms, occasionally 12-foot-by-8-foot storage closets — that the Postal Service dubs "resource rooms." Postal employees use more colorful names, like "holding pens" and "blue rooms.".............
http://www.federaltimes.com/article/.../DEPARTMENTS02

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

Yep, Teamsters negotiate with UPS...two different entities. Government union negotiates with the government...basically with themselves?!?

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.

Originally Posted by Loveithere

Yes,Yes they negotiate with themselves and rob the taxpayers. Government employees should receive the pensions that social security people get. They are not better then SS people so they should receive the average SS payout. No more!!!!

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

Originally Posted by njbchbum

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.

Curious to know where you get your facts?
BUT At the state institution that I work for, the negotiations are between the HR department and the union representatives (also employees of our institution)...these people are all bascially co-workers! The negotiate over the use of the taxpayer's money...the same taxpayer who is not sitting in on these negotiations and therefore without a voice.

Originally Posted by njbchbum

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

I cannot believe that someone would have the gaul to ask such a question. Government hacks are not better then SS people. Most Americans are SS recipients. Government employees should never receive more then the people they are working for, which is private sector people who pay the servants to work for them. Government employees live in a Alice in Wonderland fantasy world where the taxpayers are working for the government employees. Government employees are bankrupting America. They are the new ELITE!!!!

Originally Posted by njbchbum

loveithere - govt employees do not negotiate with themselves! govt emps are represented by national unions such as the communications workers of america, the american federation of state, county, municipal workers, etc! reps of those unions bargain with govt reps to derive contracts.

why should a govt emp receive the same thing that a social security recipient receives? the ss recipient might never have been employed; they could be blind, disabled or collecting survivor benefits.

why is the govt emp not better than the ss recipient?

What if the SS worker was employed? Why should he/she work from age 21-65/70 (45-50 years!) before being able to collect? While the government employee is 30 and out and then collects immediately?

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

What if the SS worker was employed? Why should he/she work from age 21-65/70 (45-50 years!) before being able to collect? While the government employee is 30 and out and then collects immediately?

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Loveithere

Exactly.

Thanks! Glad to see there are others who haven't been drinking the Kool-aid.

Originally Posted by KatzPajamas

Having worked closely with budgets in both private and public sectors, I know a few things to be true.
Private sector rarely fails to meet budget. It is constantly monitored and adjustments are made quickly and efficiently... a stitch in time saves nine.
Public sector is much more relaxed...que sera sera! When the need to cut back is recognized, it has gone on far too long. However, the reaction is most often, to look to the state-the source of funding-to fix the problem.
Go back and read RichieLion's post again.
Why and how does the United States Postal Service continue to lose money and yet remain open?

katzpajamas -
well, my limited knowledge of budgeting sees that the private sector meets its budget because it can quickly and efficiently raise the price for their product. but in the private sector, there will come a point where the public will no longer pay the price for the product and the private employer can reduce the quality/quantity of their product; or it can adjust quickly and efficiently and reduce their operating costs, usually through staff reductions. in the case of the latter, the govt will then pick up the increased cost to support the unemployed worker...and the private sector corporate leader will still be employed.

well, the govt never anticipated the need to support those unemployed private sector workers, so where will the money to do that come from. the govt will have to increase their revenue sources by raising taxes, fees, fines, penalties, etc. since the govt has no product to sell. the government parties who choose to raise their "prices" risk not being the government come the next election!

if you have been following politics of late, can you point to anyone in the public sector who is relaxed about the economy?

Originally Posted by njbchbum

a government union is not the government.

in n.j. state employees are represented by national unions such as the cwa or afscme or pba or fop or ipte.

representatives of each union collectively bargain/negotiate a contract for their members with representatives of the governor's office...two different entities [union and govt]. legislators are not involved in contract negotiations.

Government Unions negotiate with the government for money that the government confiscates from the citizenry in the form of taxes and fees.

Government Unions donate a portion of that money, from workers dues and political PAC's, to political campaigns. Government Unions advocate for those politicians who are down with the struggle.

The government negotiates with the Government Unions again. The circle is complete.