Originally Posted by Guest

He was a Jew, not a Christian. He had no skin in the game. He was also a citizen of Rome.

And he wrote it 60 years later. It's like you writing NOW about something that happened in 1957...how accurate is it going to be? And besides...

"Josephus wrote all of his surviving works after his establishment in Rome (c. AD 71) under the patronage of the Flavian Emperor Vespasian. As is common with ancient texts, however, there are no surviving extant manuscripts of Josephus' works that can be dated before the 11th century, and the oldest of these are all Greek minuscules, copied by Christian monks.[59] (Jews did not preserve the writings of Josephus either because they considered him to be a traitor"

"Because manuscript transmission was done by hand-copying, typically by monastic scribes, almost all ancient texts have been subject to both accidental and deliberate alterations, emendations (called interpolation) or elisions. Both the lack of any original corroborating manuscript source outside the Christian tradition as well as the practice of Christian interpolation has led to the scholarly debate regarding the authenticity of Josephus' references to Jesus in his work."

"Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship"

Originally Posted by Guest

The Mass was in Latin because Latin was the universal language until English took over. The Catholic Missal had the Latin on one side of the page and across was the local language. So yes, you could follow the Mass.

It stayed in Latin a LOT longer than it had to.

You're quibbling over details...when the WHOLE thing is a lie. They lied in Latin, they lied in English...so what?

Originally Posted by Guest

Don Baldwin

Denounce the messenger when you CAN'T denounce the message...


Show me an original text written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

Show me the original text written by Jesus. That one should be easy...right?

Show me ANY text...by ANY author at the time of Jesus that mentions him.

Show me ANY record at all of Jesus that was made at the time of Jesus.

Wiotte seems to have struck a nerve. His question was not answered.

------------------------

I get it now. You don't like the message, so you search for reasons to deny its authenticity.

Of course you know that the Gospel of John, the letters of Peter, the letters of Jesus' brothers, etc. are contemporaneous writings of eyewitnesses to the life and actions of Jesus of Nazareth, and at the very least the Gospel of Mark was based upon accounts told to him by the Apostle Peter.

But, you seek to delegitimize all that because the original documents were handled so much in being passed from church to church that they were were worn out, and copies had to be produced. So............the "original" documents are gone. We have copies, and copies of copies. No one denies this.

Realizing that you are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of faith, I wouldn't even bother to respond to your specious arguments if it weren't for the fact that I don't want other readers to be taken in by your fallacious position.

Textual scholarship (Westcott - Hort Greek scholars), testimony of the early church fathers about the authenticity of the New Testament books (by quoting them), and establishment of a Biblical canon by church councils, all served to have us arrive at the Bible we have today.

Don't bother to shout again that we don't have any "original" written texts. I've handled that.


Carl in Tampa

.

Originally Posted by Guest

Wiotte seems to have struck a nerve. His question was not answered.

------------------------

I get it now. You don't like the message, so you search for reasons to deny its authenticity.

Of course you know that the Gospel of John, the letters of Peter, the letters of Jesus' brothers, etc. are contemporaneous writings of eyewitnesses to the life and actions of Jesus of Nazareth, and at the very least the Gospel of Mark was based upon accounts told to him by the Apostle Peter.

But, you seek to delegitimize all that because the original documents were handled so much in being passed from church to church that they were were worn out, and copies had to be produced. So............the "original" documents are gone. We have copies, and copies of copies. No one denies this.

Realizing that you are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of faith, I wouldn't even bother to respond to your specious arguments if it weren't for the fact that I don't want other readers to be taken in by your fallacious position.

Textual scholarship (Westcott - Hort Greek scholars), testimony of the early church fathers about the authenticity of the New Testament books (by quoting them), and establishment of a Biblical canon by church councils, all served to have us arrive at the Bible we have today.

Don't bother to shout again that we don't have any "original" written texts. I've handled that.


Carl in Tampa

.

Listen...if "God" comes to earth to lay down the law...he's going to write it down. Jesus never wrote ANYTHING.

You can believe your religion invented by Paul...just like the Muslims believe the religion invented by Muhammad. Be my guest.

It's funny...there's NOTHING to back up ANYTHING. No 10 Commandments, no Chalice, no Ark of the Covenant, NO writings from Jesus...NOTHING...WTF??? It's ALL hearsay...and FAITH...that the man collecting 10% isn't lying to you.

It's been pushed on you since you were infants. "Sunday School" was propaganda school. They feed these VERY young kids "stories" and they swallow it hook line and sinker. Most NEVER shake it and realize how fake it all is.

How can I expect you to see this ruse when you can't even see the other big lie...racial equality. IF you were in law enforcement and actually got out into the "sh!t"...you KNOW what I'm talking about. Blacks are NOT the same as white people. They DON'T think the same, they DON'T act the same. We can go down to MLK Blvd and you can see for yourself just how different the 99% are.

If you don't want people talking sh!t about your religion...don't bring it up.

There are as many Muslims as there are Christians...why do you think YOU are right and they are wrong? You DO know they think the same about you...YOU are wrong and they are right. You're BOTH wrong.

Originally Posted by Don Baldwin

Listen...if "God" comes to earth to lay down the law...he's going to write it down. Jesus never wrote ANYTHING.



You can believe your religion invented by Paul...just like the Muslims believe the religion invented by Muhammad. Be my guest.



It's funny...there's NOTHING to back up ANYTHING. No 10 Commandments, no Chalice, no Ark of the Covenant, NO writings from Jesus...NOTHING...WTF??? It's ALL hearsay...and FAITH...that the man collecting 10% isn't lying to you.



It's been pushed on you since you were infants. "Sunday School" was propaganda school. They feed these VERY young kids "stories" and they swallow it hook line and sinker. Most NEVER shake it and realize how fake it all is.



How can I expect you to see this ruse when you can't even see the other big lie...racial equality. IF you were in law enforcement and actually got out into the "sh!t"...you KNOW what I'm talking about. Blacks are NOT the same as white people. They DON'T think the same, they DON'T act the same. We can go down to MLK Blvd and you can see for yourself just how different the 99% are.



If you don't want people talking sh!t about your religion...don't bring it up.



There are as many Muslims as there are Christians...why do you think YOU are right and they are wrong? You DO know they think the same about you...YOU are wrong and they are right. You're BOTH wrong.

"To begin, atheism involves a logical fallacy known as a universal negative. Simply stated, a person would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to be able to say "there is no God" from his own pool of knowledge. Only someone capable of being in all places at the same time — with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe — can make such a statement based on the facts. In other words, a person would have to be God to say there is no God. Hence, the assertion is logically indefensible."

This makes sense Don

Originally Posted by Guest

Don Baldwin

Listen...if "God" comes to earth to lay down the law...he's going to write it down. Jesus never wrote ANYTHING.

"Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground." John 8:6-8 That would be eyewitness, the Apostle John.

It's funny...there's NOTHING to back up ANYTHING. No 10 Commandments, no Chalice, no Ark of the Covenant, NO writings from Jesus...NOTHING...WTF??? It's ALL hearsay...and FAITH...that the man collecting 10% isn't lying to you.

There is the existence of the independent, self-governing Nation of Israel today, after it ceased to exist with the fall of the Roman Empire, in which it was a mere province. Restoration was fulfillment of ancient prophecy.


How can I expect you to see this ruse when you can't even see the other big lie...racial equality. IF you were in law enforcement and actually got out into the "sh!t"...you KNOW what I'm talking about. Blacks are NOT the same as white people. They DON'T think the same, they DON'T act the same.

See the photograph, below.

You don't get to set the rules on how God behaves when he becomes incarnate on Earth. You are also not the first to make that mistake.

Your reliance on the need for ancient documents to bolster your belief is naive and touching. Perhaps you could produce the cup from which Socrates drank the hemlock. Or, for that matter, any original document that he wrote. Can't? Oh, then by your logic there was no Socrates.

Did the Seven Wonders of the World exist? Really? Where? We see the pyramids, but have no idea where the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were located. Except, maybe somewhere in Babylon, of course.

Was there really a great poet and play writer named Shakespeare, or was all of that work written by Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? Prove your answer.

Your problem continues to be a demand for proof when Christianity is based upon faith.

And, as I have already observed. You are not seeking Truth, but rather a way to reject Christian teachings.


Carl in Tampa

.

Originally Posted by Guest

"To begin, atheism involves a logical fallacy known as a universal negative. Simply stated, a person would have to be omniscient and omnipresent to be able to say "there is no God" from his own pool of knowledge. Only someone capable of being in all places at the same time — with a perfect knowledge of all that is in the universe — can make such a statement based on the facts. In other words, a person would have to be God to say there is no God. Hence, the assertion is logically indefensible."

This makes sense Don

Oh please...YOU are the one claiming something exists...prove it. I've heard there are geese who lay golden eggs...can you PROVE they don't exist?

YOUR claim is logically indefensible. You CAN'T prove something doesn't exist...but that's NOT my job...it's YOUR JOB to PROVE it does...otherwise it's just a story...like MANY others.

Originally Posted by Guest

You don't get to set the rules on how God behaves when he becomes incarnate on Earth. You are also not the first to make that mistake.

Your reliance on the need for ancient documents to bolster your belief is naive and touching. Perhaps you could produce the cup from which Socrates drank the hemlock. Or, for that matter, any original document that he wrote. Can't? Oh, then by your logic there was no Socrates.

Did the Seven Wonders of the World exist? Really? Where? We see the pyramids, but have no idea where the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were located. Except, maybe somewhere in Babylon, of course.

Was there really a great poet and play writer named Shakespeare, or was all of that work written by Edward de Vere, Earl of Oxford? Prove your answer.

Your problem continues to be a demand for proof when Christianity is based upon faith.

And, as I have already observed. You are not seeking Truth, but rather a way to reject Christian teachings.


Carl in Tampa

.

I'm NOT claiming there WAS a Socrates/Jesus...YOU are.

I don't have to prove anything...I'm NOT making the claim...YOU are. YOU prove Shakespeare existed if you claim he did. Many believe "Shakespeare WAS more than one persons writings. Same with Homer.

was shakespeare real - Google Search

YOUR problem is you accept faith with no proof.

"You don't get to set the rules on how God behaves when he becomes incarnate on Earth."

Maybe not...but I sure as hell CAN tell "God" what he did wrong. You'd think an all powerful. all knowing "God" would have thought it through a little better and maybe left a few writings...SOME real hard evidence he was here...his message...in a concrete form so we'd never forget. Why not? God WANTED people to have to remember orally? Make their own interpretation?

Do you think Islam is "wrong"? Judaism? Hinduism? Buddhism? Which Christian sect has it right?

Catholic Church - 1.285 billion.
Protestantism - 800 million.
Eastern Orthodoxy - 270 million.
Oriental Orthodoxy - 86 million.
Anglicanism - 85 million.
Restorationism and Nontrinitarianism - 35 million.
Independent Catholicism - 18 million.

I posit...NONE of them. YOU go ahead and PROVE one of them IS correct.

The onus is on YOU to PROVE what you believe in is REAL. It's NOT up to me to disprove it.

I can't believe that in 2017 there are people who believe in a "God" who created the universe, created life, including us...who CARES what each and every one of us is doing/thinking at all times...and is judging us to determine whether we deserve heaven or hell. IF he knows EVERYTHING...he knew the answer BEFORE we were born.

The biggest question is...where did "God" come from? The most powerful, smartest thing even beyond the universe...just happened? Was always there?

I don't think so...

Let me comment on your picture...do you notice the difference? I do. The WHITE guy is a VOLUNTEER...the black guy...is WORKING...he's getting PAID to do it. White people VOLUNTEER...a LOT...blacks...hardly EVER. There's the difference.

Menendez, McCain, Ginsberg, Midterms!!!

Liberals keep talking nonsense as if voters will fall for it, keep it up!

Originally Posted by Guest

Wiotte seems to have struck a nerve. His question was not answered.

------------------------

I get it now. You don't like the message, so you search for reasons to deny its authenticity.

Of course you know that the Gospel of John, the letters of Peter, the letters of Jesus' brothers, etc. are contemporaneous writings of eyewitnesses to the life and actions of Jesus of Nazareth, and at the very least the Gospel of Mark was based upon accounts told to him by the Apostle Peter.

But, you seek to delegitimize all that because the original documents were handled so much in being passed from church to church that they were were worn out, and copies had to be produced. So............the "original" documents are gone. We have copies, and copies of copies. No one denies this.

Realizing that you are just looking for reasons to justify your lack of faith, I wouldn't even bother to respond to your specious arguments if it weren't for the fact that I don't want other readers to be taken in by your fallacious position.

Textual scholarship (Westcott - Hort Greek scholars), testimony of the early church fathers about the authenticity of the New Testament books (by quoting them), and establishment of a Biblical canon by church councils, all served to have us arrive at the Bible we have today.

Don't bother to shout again that we don't have any "original" written texts. I've handled that.


Carl in Tampa

.

The Gospel of "John" was written years after the death of Jesus. Peter never met Jesus and lived hundreds of miles from Jerusalem. So these are the very least third hand reports. I don't doubt that a messianistic historical figure lived at the time (whatever his name was) but to give the appearance of quoting him word for word and then basing an entire belief system on those sayings without even questioning their validity, is...foolish.

Originally Posted by Guest

The Gospel of "John" was written years after the death of Jesus. Peter never met Jesus and lived hundreds of miles from Jerusalem. So these are the very least third hand reports. I don't doubt that a messianistic historical figure lived at the time (whatever his name was) but to give the appearance of quoting him word for word and then basing an entire belief system on those sayings without even questioning their validity, is...foolish.

There were MANY "prophets" running around at the time.

I believe that Paul created a amalgam...a "best of" to use to created HIS version of "Christianity". The Jews in power didn't buy that ANY of the prophets were "the one".

IF "God" went through all that trouble...a stupid thing really if you think about it...to manifest himself in our form and "teach us"...he did a **** poor job of it.

And WHY? Why bother with bacteria? That IS what we are to a being like that...below bacteria. Do you care what each individual bacterium does/thinks/treats his neighbor? Then why would God care about us?

I don't blame you...you were indoctrinated, brainwashed at an early age. I blame those who would extract a 10% tithe from everyone they can.

Of course, "you" is in the broad, general sense. You mellin are aware of the scam.

Originally Posted by Guest

Don Baldwin

Psalm 14:1

The onus is on YOU to PROVE ................

Oh, my friend, you have clearly failed to understand what I told you previously. I did not set out to convince you of anything, so I have no obligation to prove anything.

In fact, most of my remarks have been directed toward other readers who might be easily mislead by your specious reasoning. In fact, I am confident that until I directed your attention towards Socrates, you had never given a thought to doubting that he once lived.

For those other readers, here is a quick review of some evidences of the transforming power of God's love.

1. The Apostle Paul - Prior to his conversion after being stricken blind while on the road to Damascus, Paul had consented to the stoning of Christians. His mission in Damascus was to arrest Christians and take them to Jerusalem for judgement. His entire life changed after encountering Jesus, and he became the most active missionary for Christianity in the Bible.

2. The Twelve Apostles - All of the Apostles, including the one chosen to replace Judas, had witnessed the risen Jesus, and would die as martyrs (except John) rather than renounce him. John died in exile on the Isle of Patmos, after writing the Gospel of John, the Johannine letters, and Revelation.

3. John Newton - Newton went to sea at age 11 under his father, a British sea captain. Newton was a vile, obscene, dishonest man, who rose through the ranks to become a sea captain himself. He was Captain of a slave ship, transporting slaves from Africa to the Caribbean British Colonies.

After his conversion to Christianity, Newton continued at sea for a while, apparently unfeeling towards the slaves. Finally, after an illness, he gave up the sea. Several years later he was accepted into the Anglican priesthood. His revulsion towards the slave trade was finally complete and he worked with other English abolitionists to pass the laws that ended the slave trade throughout the British Empire.

He is the author of the song "Amazing Grace."

I'm sure Don won't be able to stand watching this video. The rest of you might find it illuminating and interesting. It explains the title of this post.

Wintley Phipps Sings Amazing Grace at Carnegie Hall - YouTube on Vimeo


Carl in Tampa


.

Originally Posted by Guest

There were MANY "prophets" running around at the time.

I believe that Paul created a amalgam...a "best of" to use to created HIS version of "Christianity". The Jews in power didn't buy that ANY of the prophets were "the one".

IF "God" went through all that trouble...a stupid thing really if you think about it...to manifest himself in our form and "teach us"...he did a **** poor job of it.

And WHY? Why bother with bacteria? That IS what we are to a being like that...below bacteria. Do you care what each individual bacterium does/thinks/treats his neighbor? Then why would God care about us?

I don't blame you...you were indoctrinated, brainwashed at an early age. I blame those who would extract a 10% tithe from everyone they can.

Of course, "you" is in the broad, general sense. You mellin are aware of the scam.

Constantine's mother, at the age of 80 or so, visited Jerusalem for the first time. She was able to walk just so far with her physical limitations, and every time she was getting tired and needed to rest, there was yet another spot where Jesus supposedly did something or other, which she could then sit and admire. A friend who visited told me she toured Paul's mother's house. When I snorted, she said "Oh, they kept good records." Now the United States of America keeps pretty good records, but I defy you to find Paul Revere's mother's house, and we're talking two hundred years versus two thousand years. In other words, tourists have always been pretty good marks. So yes, a book which begins with two incestuous nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake is not my idea of a foundation for a serious religion.

Originally Posted by Guest

Constantine's mother, at the age of 80 or so, visited Jerusalem for the first time. She was able to walk just so far with her physical limitations, and every time she was getting tired and needed to rest, there was yet another spot where Jesus supposedly did something or other, which she could then sit and admire. A friend who visited told me she toured Paul's mother's house. When I snorted, she said "Oh, they kept good records." Now the United States of America keeps pretty good records, but I defy you to find Paul Revere's mother's house, and we're talking two hundred years versus two thousand years. In other words, tourists have always been pretty good marks.

So yes, a book which begins with two incestuous nudists who took dietary advice from a talking snake is not my idea of a foundation for a serious religion.

Awesome!!

Originally Posted by Guest

Oh, my friend, you have clearly failed to understand what I told you previously. I did not set out to convince you of anything, so I have no obligation to prove anything.

In fact, most of my remarks have been directed toward other readers who might be easily mislead by your specious reasoning. In fact, I am confident that until I directed your attention towards Socrates, you had never given a thought to doubting that he once lived.

For those other readers, here is a quick review of some evidences of the transforming power of God's love.

1. The Apostle Paul - Prior to his conversion after being stricken blind while on the road to Damascus, Paul had consented to the stoning of Christians. His mission in Damascus was to arrest Christians and take them to Jerusalem for judgement. His entire life changed after encountering Jesus, and he became the most active missionary for Christianity in the Bible.

2. The Twelve Apostles - All of the Apostles, including the one chosen to replace Judas, had witnessed the risen Jesus, and would die as martyrs (except John) rather than renounce him. John died in exile on the Isle of Patmos, after writing the Gospel of John, the Johannine letters, and Revelation.

3. John Newton - Newton went to sea at age 11 under his father, a British sea captain. Newton was a vile, obscene, dishonest man, who rose through the ranks to become a sea captain himself. He was Captain of a slave ship, transporting slaves from Africa to the Caribbean British Colonies.

After his conversion to Christianity, Newton continued at sea for a while, apparently unfeeling towards the slaves. Finally, after an illness, he gave up the sea. Several years later he was accepted into the Anglican priesthood. His revulsion towards the slave trade was finally complete and he worked with other English abolitionists to pass the laws that ended the slave trade throughout the British Empire.

He is the author of the song "Amazing Grace."

I'm sure Don won't be able to stand watching this video. The rest of you might find it illuminating and interesting. It explains the title of this post.

Wintley Phipps Sings Amazing Grace at Carnegie Hall - YouTube on Vimeo


Carl in Tampa


.

Thank you, Carl, for the link to that video.......goosebumps from beginning to end. And thank you for being a light amongst a lot of darkness on this forum.

Hey for us agnostic, are you guys playing a video game?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

After re-read this entire thread I am left with these thoughts.

Men cannot accurately record today's news and its readers all walk away with different interpretations. And yet here we are debating the ancient history, the Bible, etc and yet we know that corrupt men corrupt trying to retain history on their side

And so history provides their version of the story (Spartans-Athenians, Calvary-Indians Protestants-Catholics Confederate-Union Armies)

The ubiquitous questions on every human beings mind are "who made us" what is our purpose" and the like
And for every philosophical question that creates a vacuum someone is there to fill it.

Religion is in my view good. What is bad are those who would distort religion for their selfish purposes.

I did not need anyone to tell me I am spiritual, Its instinctive. i alwyas knew it and felt it

I did not need anyone to tell me to reject homosexuality. It was instinctive and in my view unnatural.

I did not need anyone to point out that people different than me are both good and bad, just like people like me.

I did not need anyone to tell me that some of the teachings by my church didn't fit. and as a side bar was sorry they made the decision to forego the mass in Latin. I was an altar boy and learned the prayers in Latin. what a beautiful language

I viewed the teachings of the Bible more as important lessons in human behaviors and admonitions. I'll leave the divinity issues, etc to more scholarly people.

People can argue to and fro but if every human being followed the 10 Commandments not based on their divinity but simply their instruction this would be a much better world.

Personal Best Regards: