[wirenail444]

Originally Posted by Choro&Swing

Today you are likely to hear on network news “shocking” information that people who kill “whites” are 17 times as likely to be executed as are people who kill “black” people. This is presented as a horrible instance of racism in action. But what is going on here? I’m quite puzzled.

Here is the New York Times article on the topic proclaiming a “Vast Racial Gap”:

A Vast Racial Gap in Death Penalty Cases, New Study Finds - The New York Times

Here is the 69 page scholarly Harvard University study, “Whom the State Kills,” on which the article is based:

https://harvardcrcl.org/wp-content/u...or-Website.pdf

Here is the chart from that paper on which the Times article is based (bottom of the page, perhaps):

What does the chart actually show: Only 2.26% of people who kill “white” victims are actually executed. By contrast, only 0.13% of people who kill “black” victims are actually executed. That’s where the “17 times as many” comes from. Out of 1503 killers of “black” victims, only 20 received the death sentence, and only 2 of the killers were actually executed. (One a murder of military personnel and the other a murder by a person in the military.) Out of 980 killers of “white” victims, by contrast, 107 were given the death penalty, though only 22 were executed.

Note that the Harvard study does NOT say what the race of the killers was. FBI statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, “whites” are killed by “whites and “blacks” are killed by “blacks”, but this article doesn’t say.

So, I’m puzzled about what we are to draw from this article. I’m sure what will be on television news will be something like “Glaring Inequality!” But how do we fix this inequality? In these days when we are constantly told that BLM, what are they proposing? In the name of equality, are we to cut back on the number of killers of “white” victims who are executed? Or are we to increase the number of killers of “black” victims who are executed by 17 times?

What do you think?

1. The NYT is the worst newspaper in the country. They regularly lie.
2. You can make statistics say anything you want.
3. The real crime against the poor is the intercity school systems. The path out of poverty is education and the poor are denied a decent education by the democratic run cities.

If you want to be upset, at least pick the right issue.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by LG999

If the article/study does not tell you what race the killer is in each incident, how can you draw any conclusion?

The study is about the value of the victims, not the value of the killers.

Again - it doesn't matter what color the killers are, in the context of THIS topic. There could be 20 black killers, 20 white killers, and 60 Native American killers -

the end result is STILL that if the victim was black, those killers will receive, on average, a less severe punishment than if the victim was white.

[Number 10 GI]

I have the solution to the problem. If someone commits murder they are executed for it. Totally levels the field.

[Heyitsrick]

This study linked by the OP is a study advancing the work done by Professor David Baldus, et al., in 1983. Baldus researched death penalty convictions and executions in Georgia during the 1970's, and found disparities in the racial makeup of those actually executed, based on whether a murder victim was black or white.

First, the time period here was the 1970's. One can only hope that things might be different today than over 40 years ago in Georgia.

I read this paper. We all see things through the our own biases and filters, of course, but I did find the authors jumped through some hoops to make their case at times. For example, they reclassified / modified the stats on a person executed for killing a black individual because that person had also killed a white individual. In actuality, the killer (William Henry Hance) killed two black women and one white woman, and was first sentenced to death for killing one of the black women. That sentence was overturned, but later a resentencing occurred.

The authors go on to say that whenever a white victim is involved, the police response is going to be much greater, and hence a nationwide manhunt ensued to find the killer.

Here's how they justify modifying this "black murder victim" to, instead, a "white murder victim":

"In a technical sense, Hance was sentenced to death and executed for a “case” involving a Black victim, Gail Jackson. In a practical sense, though, Hance’s “case” included three victims who were killed in the same manner during a crime spree, one of whom was a white woman. Considering the facts outlined above, we believe it is appropriate to treat Hance as a white victim case. Such a conclusion is consistent with social science research which has shown that executing an offender for a transgression against a “different victim” is not unprecedented."

The authors later agree that aggravating circumstances in the different murder cases could, in fact, result in why some were eventually executed for their murders and some not. Yet they then go to great lengths to try and quantify various aggravating factors that would portend why an execution would be warranted. It was kind of like you get one point for this factor, one point for that factor, etc. And, not surprisingly, they concluded that the aggravating factors of the cases weren't sufficient to warrant the difference in why more people were executed for white victim deaths than black victim deaths.

At the very start of the study, they state that anyone being executed for a capital crime in this country is quite rare:

"An unexpected feature of the modern death penalty is the fact that most persons sentenced to death are not executed. Between 1973 and June of 2019, more than 8,000 persons have been sentenced to death, but about 1,500 persons have been executed. Death sentences are remarkably poor predictors of who will ultimately be executed."

That's ~32 people / year who have been put to death.

I do take issue with the "17 times more likely to be executed" mantras. The numbers involved in both the original Baldus study and this one are, by any reading, quite small. If you had $17 and I had $1, I'm pretty sure neither of us would be rich.

[Heyitsrick]

I think that some things that studies like these can't really address are variables that are just different in the cases involved.

Were these trials/sentences all conducted in the same court with the same judge and jury? Of course not.

Were the murders in question all similar in the manner in which the victims were killed? Very doubtful. In the end, a life or lives were taken, to be sure. But that's not how juries and judges are going to evaluate them. Was a victim shot? Was a victim kidnapped/raped/killed? You get the picture...and I'm sure I don't have to go into more gory details. Different cases present details that juries and judges are going to evaluate both objectively (to the extent possible) and emotionally. We're all human.

That doesn't mean there's never a racial component in how justice is meted out, and I'm not making that argument. But statistics in and of themselves don't tell a full story. And yes, sometimes those full stories can further a study's conclusions. Sometimes, though, they might add more context where stats in and of themselves can't paint a clear picture of what happened.

[zendog3]

Do black lives matter?

According to this research, black lives sometimes matter, but white lives matter 17 times more than black lives.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by JimJohnson

I’m in my 70’s and have watched racial equity inch forward very slowly over my lifetime, but nevertheless, inch forward. In the last few years, I see us rushing backwards. I no longer have hope to see racial equality in my lifetime.

I believe that MLK said that the arc of history moves toward the good and the positive. I hope that eventually proves out.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by cgilcreast

I don't see racists, I see crime. Triple law enforcement and anti drug enforcement and most won't have any reason to commit crime. It's drugs.

You will have to wait for A.I and Robotics to improve to create "Robo-cops" for tripling law enforcement to be cost effective. No one today wants their property and other taxes raised.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by oneclickplus

I say execute ALL killers so that we don't have to read stories of statistics about racist policies. Execute them all and the argument goes away. 100% of all murderers executed regardless of race of murderer or victim. Problem solved.

Agree, and do it in timely manner not 20 plus years after the fact.

[Topspinmo]

Originally Posted by zendog3

Do black lives matter?

According to this research, black lives sometimes matter, but white lives matter 17 times more than black lives.

Yes the study of specific results is now proven which out doubt facts.

[eddie888]

13% of the population commit 84% of the crimes. Can you figure that out.

[bluecenturian]

Please do better research. This was a very easy find on the race of the person executed. The Times is leaning the article toward their viewpoint and is hardly unbiased.

White criminals are executed more than black criminals. The victim comparison would included black on black crimes with gang on gang included. The shooter is less likely to get the death penalty for shooting another gang member shooting at him.

62% of white victims are violated by white criminals. 70% of black victims are violated by black criminals. According to your study the criminals violating black victims are not getting executed at a high enough rate however, 70% are black criminals. If those that violated black victims are facing a higher execution rate there would be people complaining black criminals are getting executed much more.

Executions by Race and Race of Victim | Death Penalty Information Center

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf

[mitch zajac]

post by Good Life Best and most honest post yet

[JimJohnson]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

I believe that MLK said that the arc of history moves toward the good and the positive. I hope that eventually proves out.

What a brilliant man Martín Luther King was. He truly walked in the path of Jesus Christ. Thank you for this post.

[Get real]

I am against the death penalty because it takes too long.