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  #406  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnsocat View Post
And when/if our government becomes truly tyrannical, have fun defending yourself with your five round clips and muzzle loaders....
And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?
  #407  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Topspinmo View Post
And that country would be overrun and taken over by men with guns. Majority of women are motherly and can not do what has to be done for protection of All. Now I agree for few cold blooded killers, but most are what we think of—- moms, nice, warm, and nurturing.
Interestingly, the fastest demographic buying firearms are women. Additionally, women make up a higher percentage seeking professional training in handling firearms. As a certified firearms instructor I am seeing this pattern. More women are also getting into the competitive shooting sports and I think that's great. I mentioned previously I'm the co-founder of the US Womens Shooting Academy. I've taken a woman who had never shot a handgun and after 7 lessons she was pulling from the holster in under a second and hitting a target at 21 feet. I will also note she didn't break a nail!
  #408  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:22 AM
MartinSE MartinSE is offline
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Originally Posted by jebartle View Post
LOCK ALL SCHOOL DOORS, one door entrance with metal detector, I don't care how much it costs, these are our children that need to be protected. Cost, the obnoxious amount spent on campaign funds, that we all ignore, can go toward this.
It is already supposed to be, apparently it isn't always enforced.

Thank you for a suggestion. I place this in the we shall, as opposed the the loud voice of we shall not.

We shall gets things done, we shall not feels good and accomplishes close to nothing.
  #409  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinSE View Post
Sorry

You left out my saying in my post that you were retired to provide ID, etc. In other words sates define who CAN NOT buy a gun, but many place no requirements other than things that mean you are NOT being allowed.

My post referenced Texas requirements for gun purchase as an example of one of the many you requested. And you left out/ignored the numerous testing, training and demonstrations of competency I listed, which does show it is much "harder" to get a gun than a drivers license, which is exactly what you asked for and then ignored.

As to proving many states, I used a state which is pertinent to THIS conversation as an example - Texas, I will leave it up to you to find the others that have more requirements.

Hint: I don't know of a single state that doesn't require some testing to obtain a drivers license - competency, vision, etc. - I know some states that require competency testing to buy a gun, but I don't think all do. All states require some kind of testing to prove driving knowledge (some will accept other states license as proof). So, I feel safe in suggesting it will not be hard to find that proof. I often get PMs complaining about too many references/links and too long posts. So, have fun, and if you go to the trouble to check all states and find no others or even fewer than half, I would be very interested. (But I am sure that will not happen).

I agree root cause is vital and in complex situations can take a long time to determine.

Many of the companies I worked for has issues with production lines that would cost the company hundreds of thousands of dollars per hour to shut down and so that was NOT an option unless lives were at risk. It is possible to find and implement temporary "work arounds" or patches on live systems.

Are you suggesting we do nothing and just accept the death toll that is growing almost weekly for the past twenty years until we can determine with some level of certainty the root cause? I hope not.

And let me close this post bye saying thank you for the civil discourse and pertinent comments and questions. If more would do this we could make progress. It is possible, and you sir are proof.
Actually I did not leave out your quote, I missed it-big difference. If you normalize the two, then the difference between the two is as you indicated, one does have testing requirements (DL) and that purchasing a gun does not require training or testing.

However, your statement: "Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard". is inflammatory and does nothing to help move the needle forward. Is it a good idea to own a firearm and not get some sort of training? No, as tragic accidents can and do happen.

Do you think these monsters care If a training requirement is an impediment to acquiring a gun legally? They have already decided to break the law, so what is to prevent them from acquiring a gun illegally?
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  #410  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive View Post
"Let's return to the 1950s when guns were for hunting game and NOT HUNTING PEOPLE !!!!!!!"

The ethics and values of the 1950s were what prevented people then from what they are doing now. Guns were just as available then. Actually much more so: if you were over 18, in Minnesota at least, you could buy a gun. Or guns. My dad had a collection of well over 50 when he died. But if we EVER had school shootings back then, we certainly didn't hear about it.

We don't have a gun problem. We have a people problem. Fix the PEOPLE and forget about demonizing guns: it is just a convenient way to avoid facing the real issues.
Social tensions are MUCH greater today and also other tensions. Many people have reacted to this by stockpiling many rifles and pistols designed for WAR and to kill people ( you don't buy a 30-round clip to go deer hunting). This made the people feel safer, but mainly it made the Gun Manufacturers more PROFIT and wealth. So they put out propaganda advertisements in Gun magazines and the NRA journal to induce these people to buy MORE guns. In the last 2 years, civilian gun ownership went from a high of 300 million guns to a new high of 400 million guns.
.........More readily available guns equate to MORE gun deaths and crime. To understand how big and BAD the US situation has become - you just need to look at a chart comparison showing gun deaths per 100,000 citizens for ALL the world's countries. Ry far, the US has the MOST !
  #411  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarah_W View Post
Interestingly, the fastest demographic buying firearms are women. Additionally, women make up a higher percentage seeking professional training in handling firearms. As a certified firearms instructor I am seeing this pattern. More women are also getting into the competitive shooting sports and I think that's great. I mentioned previously I'm the co-founder of the US Womens Shooting Academy. I've taken a woman who had never shot a handgun and after 7 lessons she was pulling from the holster in under a second and hitting a target at 21 feet. I will also note she didn't break a nail!
Thank you for helping - seriously, and thank you for this post. I was not aware that women are the fastest growing demographic. I am glad to hear that too.

And finally, thank you for helping make more responsible gun owners. I completely support responsible gun ownership. I have no desire to own one, but I understand and respect responsible gun owners.
  #412  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by The Chipster View Post
Our national addiction to guns, including assault rifles, is like a broken record. I am sick of the washed out debates and countless massacres, while congress does absolutely nothing. We all know what is the ONLY way this will change . . . elect a particular political party in enough numbers that will control Congress and finally bring sanity to this heartbroken country. Period.
Agreed
  #413  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:30 AM
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My solution is to manufacture only single shot or bolt action rifles and pistols for civilian use starting soon. Then Police can MELT down all semi-autos that they pick up in criminal hands. Also, Police could buy back semi-autos. Eventually, all weapons would be single shot or bolt action. It WOULD take a long time to get ALL semi-autos off the street. But, if you got 10% out of circulation in 5 years, it should lead to a 10% drop in mass murders. At least, that IS A WORKABLE SOLUTION. And it would take ZERO guns away from law abiding citizens, thus 2nd amendment protection.
A workable solution. Each side in the debate has to GIVE some. I don't want to take away any guns, except the obvious MAN-killers!
  #414  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:31 AM
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We are unique in that our Constitution enumerates our right to bear Arms which "shall not be infringed" upon (which current laws actually do).
Other countries do not have our Constitution.
  #415  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinSE View Post
Uh, yes hypocritical, since we are told repeatedly in every one of these conversations that ALL OF THE murders of children take place in "gun free zones" - so, being gun free obviously will not stop shooters that want to shoot.

So, I respectfully disagree with you. For the Organization that pushes for NO restrictions on carrying guns ANYWHERE, to NOT allow guns while they discuss GUNS ANYWHERE is the perfect example of hypocrisy. (BTW, I thought the NRA was pushing for guns in colleges - schools. Another example of gun anywhere except at our meeting.
As stated by someone else previously, the only time the NRA says no guns allowed is when the Secret Service directs them to do so. I've been to NRA conventions while having my 9mm in my purse with no issues whatsoever.
  #416  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Trayderjoe View Post
Actually I did not leave out your quote, I missed it-big difference. If you normalize the two, then the difference between the two is as you indicated, one does have testing requirements (DL) and that purchasing a gun does not require training or testing.
Thank you

Quote:
However, your statement: "Compare the two. Obviously, Texas is very afraid of people driving on their streets, but if you want to kill children - no so hard". is inflammatory and does nothing to help move the needle forward. Is it a good idea to own a firearm and not get some sort of training? No, as tragic accidents can and do happen.
You are right, and I was wrong to use that inflammatory wording.

Quote:
Do you think these monsters care If a training requirement is an impediment to acquiring a gun legally? They have already decided to break the law, so what is to prevent them from acquiring a gun illegally?
I don't know. Ease of access? Why risk it. If these murderers could ONLY purchase from illegal sources, it would be "easier" to run sting operations to catch the illegal purchasers. But, as it stands now, they don't have too - and that is a point. Making it less easy will not deter responsible gun owners from buying, they will simply plan for it. But, someone wanting to murder children in two days may have to find an illegal deal and take the risk of it being a sting.

Not a cure, but a step - a little help.

Imagine if these shooters were captured, and offered plea deals to give up their seller or get the death penalty. Then the illegal seller is charged with murder and hung. It would certain not stop illegal sales but again every little step helps.

I saw a post early on in this thread that "at least he is dead, saves on the cost of the trail". I disagree with that. My personal favorite punishment for these murders would be publicly lowering them into a tree shredder feet first slowly. And stream the event on the Internet and require all OTA media to air live coverage with audio.


Not very liberal of me - is it.
  #417  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MartinSE View Post
And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?
Why would anybody waste the time even thinking about an isolated case that no way in any way shape or form represents presence of ANY significance.
  #418  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by spd2918 View Post
The 2nd Ammendment is not about hunting or home protection.
It's about the people having the means to resist a tyranical government.

All "semi-automatic" means is the next bullet is loaded after the last is shot. A revolver loads the next bullet by trigger squeeze (or thumb cocking) and anyone with any skill can achieve the same rate of fire as an AR15. Besides, shooting fast means less accuracy, so it's a wash.

As for the New Zealand and Australia argument, they didn't have many mass shooting before confiscation. Australia did force people into quarantine detention during covid. They could because they did not fear an armed populace.

And the reason gun ownership is up is because people fear a tyranical government. When Seattle allowed a group of Communist thugs to take over the city, people bought guns. When those same Communist thugs laid seige to a Federal Courthouse in Portland, people bought guns.

I'm all for personal choice. If you don't like guns, don't buy one.
The best way to resist a tyrannical government is with VOTES, not bullets from man-killing semi-automatic rifles. In the rare case of say a Russian or Chinese invasion (tyrannical governments), they could be resisted with bolt action rifles nicely. Like in a Red Dawn movie - resistors could use a bolt action rifle to take over the enemy's automatic weapons. Anyway, a bolt action is a better long-range sniper rifle than a short range ASSAULT rifle.
  #419  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnsocat View Post
We are unique in that our Constitution enumerates our right to bear Arms which "shall not be infringed" upon (which current laws actually do).
Other countries do not have our Constitution.
ALL RIGHTS have limits and can be regulated.

Do you believe you should be allowed to own Nukes, Cruise missiles and M1 Abrams? Why not? That would certainly fit not being infringed on.
  #420  
Old 05-27-2022, 11:42 AM
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Nicely put about the 2nd Amendment. And I believe that in that period in US History they meant a well-regulated militia's Right to Bear Arms and not so much individual settlers and towns people. They were afraid that people still loyal to England might take up arms again or some despot might take over the government which had happened often in Roman history which many learned men read.

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Originally Posted by MartinSE View Post
And at the time it was argued it was possible for a militia to use muzzle loaders to take back a rogue government.

I expect AR15's against the new XM5 will be found lacking. I expect 9MM against a M1 Abrams will be found lacking. On and On.

Are you suggesting citizens should have Cruise missiles? Why not automatic weapons? Why not F35's? After all, if the constitution - specifically the 2nd amendment - wants to be sure the populous can take back a rogue government , then it would seem to follow the citizens should be allowed to be equally armed.

Let's look at Ukraine - are we sending them civilian weapons? No, we are depleting our military arsenal because they do not have enough weapons locally capable of defending against a modern military.

So, unless you want access to Cruise, M1 Abrams, F35's and more, your argument is some what lacking.

I will completely agree there are many places in the US where a person may need a weapon to protect themselves and their loved ones. I have NO problem with that, or them. I question the need of a citizen to have 1,000 to 5,000 weapons stashed in the survival bunker. I question the need for a private citizen to own and M1 Abrams.

Do you?
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