[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by Scbang

Very good points. As you have mentioned what changed? The society, culture and almost everything changed since 1907. We are not the same people whom we can trust with 1907 or M1 Carbine. Can we change us back to 1907? Maybe not. Then we should reconsider whether the current society can be trusted with 1907s and M1 Carbines safely..

SAD

I know, it is easier to follow the path of least resistance rather than take on deteriorating moral standards in society, so we just stick our fingers in our ears and yell, LaLaLaLaLa, I can't hear you! It requires brave action to take on the people who always find a contrived excuse for evil people and their actions. Evil people with a diabolical need to cause death and destruction will find a way to do so even in the absence of guns.

If we keep allowing immoral, violent and evil people to perform these deeds, without challenge, what do you think this world will devolve to? Burry our heads in the sand and pretend all is well.

That is what is SAD.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Who was going to overpower him in a classroom full of small children?

At one point he exchanged gunfire with several of the local police officers. They felt outgunned so they fell back and waited. This was their mistake. My point is that IF there were only single shot or bolt action rifles available to mass murderers anywhere in the US, then they would be firing SLOWER and they could more EASILY be stopped a group of adults close by. There would be more time for potential victims to run or hide. And if magazines were limited to less than 5 rounds that would slow a mass murderer down.
........As the laws exist today, the would-be murderer can fire his semi-auto at about 1 round per second and for up to 30 rounds before a magazine change. Anything that can be done by a law change to slow him down, should be done. Also not allowing civilians to get body armor would help. Canada is contemplating changes right now.
.........If the current rate of mass murders continues, the US people might get so angry that they over-react on gun safety. I would rather end up like Australia than Japan as far as gun safety goes.
..........Open carry is a great example of over-reacting in the wrong direction. There is a great chance of that backfiring.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by Jack58033

The Japanese play violent video games but it does not correlate to gun violence. They make it hard to get guns.They don't have a fraction of the guns we have.

In Japanese society there are no square pegs, only round pegs and round holes. Deviance from the established societal norm is viewed critically and those people are marginalized. That is one of the reasons for the extremely high suicide rate in their society. Unlike the U.S. and European countries, the Japanese society is pretty much only Japanese and not multicultural. They don't have to contend with cultural differences. I have also read that the Japanese judicial system, in the instances of a murder/suicide, count the victims as suicides. Gives the image of a lower homicide rate.

Do some research on Japanese prisons, they are extremely regimented and by most western standards, practice brutal control methods to maintain order. Accused and convicted and imprisoned criminals do not get to see an attorney when they want. The police/prison officials determine when a prisoner is allowed counsel. There is no Miranda Warning either. Coerced confessions are quite common and rarely challenged.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Who was going to overpower him in a classroom full of small children?

If 30 small children threw objects at an adult with a bolt-action rifle, the children might get lucky and some escape.

[dewilson58]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

If 30 small children threw objects at an adult with a bolt-action rifle, the children might get lucky and some escape.

& if he had a bow & arrow............

a shooter is not going to use a b-a rifle

[Topspinmo]

I can see I’m not going to get the last rant on this subject….

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

It is true that FUNCTUALLY the Winchester 1907 is similar to the AR 15 in that they are both semi-auto rifles. But, there are significant differences. The 1907 would be longer than an AR-15 clone and therefore harder to hide under a trench coat. The cartridge of the 1907 would produce MUCH more recoil than the 223 used in an AR-15. This low-recoil feature of the 223 cartridge allows AR-15 shooters to become more proficient killers because they don't have to worry about the affects of high recoil - like barrel rise and shooter flinching. Also, the 223 cartridge is smaller and lighter than the 351 caliber of the 1907 so a mass murder can carry more rounds. And the high velocity of the 223 causes the bullet to practically explode in human flesh as compared with the .351 low velocity round. So, there ARE significant differences.
.........And society has changed so much since we grew up in the 1950s that SOMETHING must be done about the MASS-MURDER problem. The EASIEST solution is to do what Australia and New Zealand did - eliminate semi-auto rifles from CIVILIAN hands.

In Viet Nam the infantry soldier had to hump for miles in sweltering jungle conditions carrying his ammo basic load, rifle and a rucksack loaded down with other necessities. In the Sand Box soldiers humped in temperatures like an oven, carrying even more equipment than the Viet Nam vets. Some rucksacks could top 80 lbs. in weight. This demonstrated the advantages of a lightweight rifle shooting a light caliber round.

All your points are germane to a soldier in combat. None of this provided an advantage in any the school shootings or other shootings involving the AR15. All of them simply walked in an unguarded, unwatched door from their parked vehicle. The difference in ammo weight means nothing either.

The round the Model 1907 uses is similar in capability to the venerable 30-30 Winchester but both are capable rounds for deer withing their range limitation. The recoil from a .351 and time needed to get back on target really causes no limitation in rate of fire when the shooter is in a small classroom with children huddled in a corner. The .351 will more than likely penetrate 2 or more small statured children where as the 5.56 will most likely be stopped by one body. The .351 will inflict much more grievous wounds than the AR15 bullet. Typical ammo for the .351 is soft nose hunting ammo that is designed to expand when it hits flesh or bone, creating a large wound channel to cause a quick bleed out and death. The 5.56 is an effective round but it doesn't "explode", that is urban myth and it cannot create the devastating wounds the .351 can cause.

These "significant differences" mean nothing outside of the combat environment.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

I know, it is easier to follow the path of least resistance rather than take on deteriorating moral standards in society, so we just stick our fingers in our ears and yell, LaLaLaLaLa, I can't hear you! It requires brave action to take on the people who always find a contrived excuse for evil people and their actions. Evil people with a diabolical need to cause death and destruction will find a way to do so even in the absence of guns.

If we keep allowing immoral, violent and evil people to perform these deeds, without challenge, what do you think this world will devolve to? Burry our heads in the sand and pretend all is well.

That is what is SAD.

This is very true, but, do we need to make it easy for them.?

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

The "would be" government OVERTHROWERS did manage to injure about 200 Police officers and seriously wound several others. Some died later. We all saw the US Capital being overthrown and we saw the rioters beating a policeman's head while stuck in a door. We saw flag poes used as spears. Later we found out that the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers had GUNS and a boat waiting across the Potomac River.
.........We know that they chanted,"hang Mike Pense" and we saw the noose. They were NOT singing nursery rhymes and inviting Pense to a game of checkers. That WAS a DEADLY insurrection.
..........One person brought a knife into Nancy Pelosi's room. On Jan 5th there was a discussion about bringing guns and a few were found in one truck outside the capital. The Jan 6th insurrection was a perfect example of the tension that exists today throughout society. You add tension with the easy Assessability to GUNS and you have the reason for our last 2 MASS MURDERS being only 10 days apart. The immediate future holds GREAT potential for even INCREASED mass murders. The SOLUTION is to look at what other democratic countries have done to SOLVE their GUN problems.

Why didn't you also mention the ANTIFA and BLM riots where over $2 Billion in destroyed property and a number of murders. Did they not take over police stations, a whole city block and vandalize office buildings of various levels of government? Were these not acts of anarchism and sedition.?

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by frose

broken homes, no parental supervision, easy killing video games, internet, social media, what did i miss.. if the teachers were armed this would not have happened, if an armed officer was in the school this would not have happened, if the doors were closed and locked as required, this would not have happened. i will not get political, but dam, wake up!!!!!

A dozen armed officers did not stop the one shooter. Yet you expect a teacher to go head to head with a ten high on adrenaline, firing two semiautomatic, when the teach is armed with one.

Who do you think the shooter is going to target first. When the shoot comes into the room unexpected and fires as fire as possible at the teacher. Do you want to be standing at the black board with your back to the classroom door?

I expect the main result of arming teachers is most teacher will quit.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Agreed. There should be a single point of entry with security, Biometric ID checking, and metal detectors. Plastic guns would still get through, so, I am not sure how that can be handled properly and in a way that can be afforded. Remember there are 130,000 K-12 schools in the US.

"Plastic Guns"

You watch too much television. It will still require a steel barrel and other steel parts to safely fire a bullet, which any metal detector will pick up.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Between 70% and 90% of American favor universal background checks. And Congress won’t pass a law to require them.

Universal checks won't have any impact on criminals. For the most part they steal them, buy them from an illegal seller of guns or use a straw purchaser. A straw purchaser is usually a family member or significant other who isn't a prohibited person. This person legally buys the gun and completes a background check, takes possession of the gun and then gives it to the prohibited individual. How will a universal check counter that?

[affald]

One needs to truly understand the reasons that these crazy shooters slip thru the cracks, again and again.

Google things like.. The Continuing Need to Rethink Discipline

It's not rocket science or brain surgery.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by Normal

Thank goodness Florida got on this issue after Parkland and passed much more rigorous laws for background checks and extended waiting to buy guns.

It would serve congress well to examine our laws. They are some of the strictest in the US and passed by a majority of conservatives and NRA members.

How would a waiting period have stopped the shooter in New Mexico? He purchased the rifles days before the shooting. I don't know of any school shootings where the shooter did his killing the same day as buying the gun.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Why then are children SAFER in schools in other countries than the US. They are doing things right, we are doing things wrong!

So what are the things they are doing in these other countries? Please don't say gun bans stop violence, there are still knives, bludgeons, fists, feet and any number of potential weapons. What are their assault rates with these weapons? If those rates are lower than ours, how does a gun ban cause that?

I guess removing the evil talisman guns also removes the evil spirits that force a sane person to become evil.