[Byte1]

Originally Posted by OrangeBlossomBaby

I don't keep any pistol at all. I don't allow guns in my house. I have no problem with other people allowing guns in their houses. I don't approve of guns. But I live in a country where guns are allowed, and as an American, I accept that.

Guns are not allowed to be used to attack other people, however. No weapon is allowed to be used to attack other people. But the #1 tool used to kill people - is a gun. A gun can kill more people in a short period of time than a knife, or car, or ice pick, or your fists.

God didn't create guns, god didn't create idiots who reject accountability and responsibility. God didn't create people who blame god for bad things, offer thoughts and prayers instead of taking steps to prevent bad things from happening again, and god didn't create people who - instead of acknowledging that bad things happen when bad people have guns - focus on their rights to have guns. That wasn't god. That was 100% man-made conspiracy, manipulation, influence of the NRA, which also was not created by god.

God did, however, order the first-born male to be slaughtered. God also ordered Abraham to murder his son. God has a lot to say about a lot of things:

Proverbs 30:17 states, "The eye that mocks a father and scorns to obey a mother will be picked out by the ravens of the valley and eaten by the vultures".

I'd suggest a careful and thorough read of the Book of Deuteronomy if you want to know what God thinks about most behaviors.

As for Jesus - he died for the sins of the past. It was basically a pardon for crimes committed, not for future crimes.

As for the evangelicals who only abide the New Testament - they are very quick to remind us about the Ten Commandments. But those were written for the Old Testament, which their Jesus said they could disregard since he died for their sins.

God - has no place in discussion about Constitutional rights. At all. We even have an amendment about that, the whole separation of church and state thing. It's the amendment that comes right before the right to keep and bear arms.

Everyone has their "opinion" even if it might be distorted. Interesting how someone can take a very simple quote and bend it to fit their agenda. Since this thread is NOT about religion or the 2nd Amendment, I am not going to argue the Bible or how one allows their opinion to be presented as fact.
The subject is a reflection on the perpetrator's father being held responsible for his son's actions.
I believe (my humble opinion) that making the parent's responsible for the child's actions, merely tells the child that it's not his/her fault, but the parent's fault. If a child is charged with adult violations, ie. charges with murder and tried as an adult, then the parents should not be held responsible. Even if they ARE held responsible, it should be of a lesser violations, such as child neglect or maybe even contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Unless there is a conspiracy where the parent is involved in such heinous act perpetrated, the parent is not guilty of the principle charge, such as murder.

[Boomer]

Geez. There is a pattern in this thread indicating that because this monstrous idiot of a father has been hauled in, some here are convinced parents could be held responsible for everything terrible their spawn does.

That is a ridiculous extrapolation, a false equivalency, apples to oranges.

Why?

In May of '23 the kid was accused of making threats to shoot up a school. The police followed through and talked to the kid and his father.

The kid lied and said he would never make such threats, even as a joke.

The father said he had hunting guns but they were kept locked up. Lots of people have locked up guns for hunting, so this was not an unusual statement. The kid lied and the father's answer was within what a responsible gun owner might own and have locked up. Both the father and the son must have been smooth talkers. The police had to accept the situation. They had done what they could. Parental rights and all that.

BUT that father knew his kid had issues. He and the meth head mother had wrecked their offspring. (I think I read that the kid changed schools after that -- but I need to fact-check myself on that part.)

THEN came Christmas '23. And what does this pos father give his mentally messed up, young teenage son? AN ASSAULT WEAPON! And that 14 year-old took his Christmas present and killed those innocent people.

Connect the dots.

The father in this case must be held accountable.

I don't know what the charges should be. But there needs to be some serious prison time for the father. Stupid denial and neglect and stoking the kid's mental issues by giving him a Christmas present designed for fast killing. Not exactly a Norman Rockwell Christmas card image is it.

As I read this thread and saw the weird false equivalence pattern emerging, I had to wonder where this apples to oranges leap is coming from. It smells like one of those diversionary tactics that are so prevalently spewed from sources that bank on the susceptibility of those who fall for constant and well-planned distraction from the real issues.

Why is it so easy for some people to check their critical thinking skills at the door to their screen of choice and get all caught up in ridiculous "Yeah, Buts" that make no sense? Nobody is going to hold all parents responsible for what their kids do. But this time, it is a clear connection to the murders.

Boomer

[Boomer]

Geez. There is a pattern in this thread indicating that because this monstrous idiot of a father has been hauled in, some here are convinced parents could be held responsible for everything terrible their spawn does.

That is a ridiculous extrapolation, a false equivalency, apples to oranges.

Why?

In May of '23 the kid was accused of making threats to shoot up a school. The police followed through and talked to the kid and his father.

The kid lied and said he would never make such threats, even as a joke.

The father said he had hunting guns but they were kept locked up. Lots of people have locked up guns for hunting, so this was not an unusual statement. The kid lied and the father's answer was within what a responsible gun owner might own and have locked up. Both the father and the son must have been smooth talkers. The police had to accept the situation. They had done what they could. Parental rights and all that.

BUT that father knew his kid had issues. He and the meth head mother had wrecked their offspring. (I think I read that the kid changed schools after that -- but I need to fact-check myself on that part.)

THEN came Christmas '23. And what does this pos father give his mentally messed up son? AN ASSAULT WEAPON! And that 14 year-old took his Christmas present and killed those innocent people.

Connect the dots.

The father in this case must be held accountable.

I don't know what the charges should be. But there needs to be some serious prison time for the father. Stupid denial and neglect and stoking the kid's mental issues by giving him a Christmas present designed for fast killing. Not exactly a Norman Rockwell Christmas card image is it.

As I read this thread and saw the weird false equivalence pattern emerging, I had to wonder where this apples to oranges leap is coming from. It smells like one of those diversionary tactics that are so prevalently spewed from sources that bank on the susceptibility of those who fall for constant and well-planned distraction from the real issues.

Why is it so easy for some people to check their critical thinking skills at the door to their screen of choice and get all caught up in ridiculous "Yeah, Buts" that make no sense? Nobody is going to hold all parents responsible for what their kids do. But this time, it is a clear connection to the murders.

Boomer

[TheWatcher]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

I would just point out that thousands of murders with firearms are committed every day by teens, and the parents are almost never charged with any crime. There should be a more consistent application of the laws.

From the CDC most recent data:

"The overall increase in U.S. gun deaths since the beginning of the pandemic includes an especially stark rise in such fatalities among children and teens under the age of 18. Gun deaths among children and teens rose 50% in just two years, from 1,732 in 2019 to 2,590 in 2021."

54% of overall US gun deaths are from suicide.

Here is the over incidence of shootings for US population:

U.S. gun suicide and gun murder rates reached near-record highs in 2021 | Pew Research Center

"Older children and teens are much more likely than younger kids to be killed in gun-related incidents. Those ages 12 to 17 accounted for 86% of all gun deaths among children and teens in 2021, while those 6 to 11 accounted for 7% of the total, as did those 5 and under. Still, there were 179 gun deaths among children ages 6 to 11 and 184 among those 5 and under in 2021."

(There is a correction acknowleged but it helps to know the statistics)

[FredMitchell]

Originally Posted by Rocksnap

Raise of hands. Who here knows their child is bat sheet crazy and will be a school shooter?
Exactly…
Now on the other hand, a vast majority of these school shooters are “TRANSGENDER”.
And what is being totally pushed, in schools?
Don’t get me started.

To avoid "Liar liar pants on fire" fact check, support this seemingly absurd statement with evidence.

[MaryMS]

If it’s your child, grandchild, or spouse that is murdered, your opinion is likely to change about owning military style weapons.

[dsgreen3]

Originally Posted by Pugchief

Excellent point. Charging the parents of gangbangers would go a long way to reducing inner city violence.

Many cities have chosen the alternate option: charge and prosecute no one. How's that working?

Many "gangbangers" don't know who their daddy is!

[FredMitchell]

Originally Posted by MaryMS

If it’s your child, grandchild, or spouse that is murdered, your opinion is likely to change about owning military style weapons.

Off topic^ Reread the title of the post.

Also very shallow thinking. Spouse murdered in vehicular homicide - outlaw guns?, cars? Murdered by knife. guns or knifes? Murdered with single shot shotgun, military style weapons?

Weak conclusion due to shallow thought process.

[manaboutown]

Originally Posted by MaryMS

If it’s your child, grandchild, or spouse that is murdered, your opinion is likely to change about owning military style weapons.

That is a non sequitur as you failed to mention a murder weapon. In the proposed case what was used to commit the murder? It might or might not be a "military style" weapon whatever that is.

What if someone close to me was murdered by a vehicle, knife, ax, hammer, arrow from a bow or crossbow, a rock from a sling, suffocation with a plastic garbage bag or even a chainsaw? How would that change my opinion about owning one of them? It might or it might not. If a steak knife was used should I not use one to cut my steak?

[Marine1974]

Originally Posted by Chellybean

Although i agree with this, it is also becoming dangerous to our 2nd amendment, if they start holding gun manufactures liable as well.
They are chipping away of our rights as legal gun owners!

An AR -15 although not fully automatic, should not be sold to civilians. It purpose is for mass killings. The manufacturers should be banned from selling weapons like these and banned from making anymore ammunition. There are plenty of other weapons to choose from
that will satisfy your rights . How much more slaughter of innocent children can you endure ? Only
My opinion as a former US Marine trained as a lethal tool .

[Bonanza]

Originally Posted by Tvflguy

Finally, irresponsible parent(s) are being held liable and charged. Hopefully this may affect these horrible shootings by troubled kids.

BTW Dr Phil had a wonderful episode on this topic. He, and other leaders may have an impact to alleviate these shootings. His stats show that 94% of these shooters had told other students or posted their plans.

Word has a way of getting around in school of the kids who talk or brag about hate crimes, weapons, killings, etc.
It's time for the kids who hear these things, true or not, to report them to law enforcement or at least their parents.
Somewhere down the line, there has to be some type of follow up which is not an easy thing to do.

The slogan "If you hear something, say something" applies to children, also.

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by Rocksnap

Raise of hands. Who here knows their child is bat sheet crazy and will be a school shooter?
Exactly…
Now on the other hand, a vast majority of these school shooters are “TRANSGENDER”.
And what is being totally pushed, in schools? From a young age. Lest we forget that some are wanting tampons available in the boys bathrooms.
Seems to me this social excercise in WTF is being manufactured by something we can’t talk about on here.
Don’t get me started.

Too late! You've self started.

[Marine1974]

I agree and you can’t let a 14 year old
who murders in cold blood should never be let out in society to repeat .

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Everyone has their "opinion" even if it might be distorted. Interesting how someone can take a very simple quote and bend it to fit their agenda. Since this thread is NOT about religion or the 2nd Amendment, I am not going to argue the Bible or how one allows their opinion to be presented as fact.
The subject is a reflection on the perpetrator's father being held responsible for his son's actions.
I believe (my humble opinion) that making the parent's responsible for the child's actions, merely tells the child that it's not his/her fault, but the parent's fault. If a child is charged with adult violations, ie. charges with murder and tried as an adult, then the parents should not be held responsible. Even if they ARE held responsible, it should be of a lesser violations, such as child neglect or maybe even contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Unless there is a conspiracy where the parent is involved in such heinous act perpetrated, the parent is not guilty of the principle charge, such as murder.

The parent isn't being held responsible for the child's actions. The parent is being held responsible for their own actions, which created the opportunity for the child to commit the crime. The child is also being held responsible for his own actions and will be tried as an adult.

The child was 14 years old. He should not have had access to any firearm, and at age 14 his parents ARE responsible for their children, 24/7. Colin Grey, the father, KNOWINGLY allowed his son to possess a gun.

This is only the second time in the history of this country that a parent was charged in connection with a crime committed by their minor child.

Colt Gray, the kid, was charged with 4 counts of murder. Colin Gray, the father, was charged with involuntary manslaughter and 2nd degree murder. So yes - the father is being charged with lesser crimes. Dad put the gun in the kid's hand. The kid pulled the trigger. All is as it should be, with regards to who is being charged for what.

When it's your own grandchild who dies, would you prefer thoughts first, or prayers first? Or - will you want to punish the father who admitted to giving his 14-year-old kid a semi-automatic weapon AND the 14-year-old kid who chose to use it to kill your grandchild?

[fdpaq0580]

Originally Posted by dsgreen3

Many "gangbangers" don't know who their daddy is!

Daddy may be a gangsta also. Or not.