[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

I really love your posts - so sensible.

This one reminded me of the old adage, "The more things change, the more they stay the same"...

It's not just pandemics - google "The Mexican Repatriation" in 1930s. Amazing how similar (actually in some ways worse) to today.

Thank you.

I found this article while looking for the one on Dr. Kinyoun.

San Francisco plague of 1900–1904 - Wikipedia

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

"As the Associated Press notes, Walensky cited data from the last few days, still unpublished, taken from 100 samples from vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals with COVID infections. They found that the amount of virus in the noses and throats of vaccinated infected people was nearly "indistinguishable" from what was found in unvaccinated people, confirming what some experts have suspected."

Full reference:

CDC Confirms That Viral Loads In Vaccinated People With Delta May Be Infectious, So Masks Are Necessary

This is puzzling. Is there any reason to believe that nasal viral load in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated should be different regardless of Covid variant - whether it's the original, alpha, South African, etc.?

The nostrils and throat are the point of entry before the vaccine works its magic. But the vaccine shouldn't have any effect on the initial exposure load, or does it? I don't believe the vaccines have the ability to kill the virus on initial contact, but maybe I'm wrong.

That said, let's ignore the fact that the Delta variant is much more contagious for a moment. If the more subtle variants can be transmitted by droplets in the UNvaccinated's respiratory system, why shouldn't droplets in the vaccinated be just as prone to transmission, contrary to what the CDC and WHO has said?

And if they are indeed equally transmissible, that would explain why a much more contagious variant (Delta) is wreaking such havoc.

[graciegirl]

This is not the first time that politics and race have entered into the discussion of a pandemic.

Dr. Kinyoun went on to become the first national director of public health.

Plague of Kinyounism: The Caricatures of Bacteriology in 1900 San Francisco | Social History of Medicine | Oxford Academic

[Byte1]

Originally Posted by Patriceunger

So how many non FDA approved vaccines are people expected to go for as part of the ongoing clinical studies where the efficiencies and long term effects are unknown?

For crying out loud, how many folks are going to continue with the "vaccine has not been approved?" Of course it's been approved.
How many folks does anyone on here know that have died from the vaccination? I bet a lot of us know folks that have died that did NOT get vaccinated. Maybe it hadn't been "approved" at the time they were infected? Go ahead and take a chance. After all, most folks on here have lived a long life and are ready to go soon, anyway. Right? Take a chance with those few years you have left. I wonder how many on here are just hoping for a few more years, months, days with their spouse or children. Those are the ones that are hoping that the vaccine is their miracle that will prolong their lives a little bit longer. Others are worried that their might be long term effects from the vaccine. Why? Because you feel that 30 years from now, you might be affected?
You are NOT taking a chance by getting the shot. You are taking a chance NOT getting the shot. Ever heard of the game called Russian roulette? Someone takes a revolver and puts one bullet in it and spins the cylinder. Then you aim it at yourself and pull the trigger with the hope that the firing pin falls on one of the five empty cylinders. Think of the vaccine as a totally empty revolver and the idea of not getting the shot as one cylinder with a bullet in it. Do you wish to take the chance or the guarantee?

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Thank you.

I found this article while looking for the one on Dr. Kinyoun.

San Francisco plague of 1900–1904 - Wikipedia

Great article.

It refers to ethnicity, not skin color as a source.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

That said, let's ignore the fact that the Delta variant is much more contagious for a moment. If the more subtle variants can be transmitted by droplets in the UNvaccinated's respiratory system, why shouldn't droplets in the vaccinated be just as prone to transmission, contrary to what the CDC and WHO has said?

And if they are indeed equally transmissible, that would explain why a much more contagious variant (Delta) is wreaking such havoc.

Why would I even begin to try to second guess people that have spent their entire lives studying and working in a field? And then draw a conclusion based on nothing except "common sense" which is almost always wrong.

Armchair coaching is fine when talking about basketball or football, but when millions of lives are at stake, I will listen to experts. They may not be perfect, they may make mistakes, they may even change their minds, but they KNOW one help of a lot more than I do. So, no thank you, I will not make a guess or supposition.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Thank you.

I found this article while looking for the one on Dr. Kinyoun.

San Francisco plague of 1900–1904 - Wikipedia

Thank you

Originally Posted by blueash

Scientific literacy it useful if you are going to cite something.. Please look again at the chart which led you to conclude that "the majority of unvaccinated are in the black population"

The chart the OP posted reports that 36% of Black folks have received at least one dose, thus 64% have not. As they represent 12% of the US population, per the same KFF report, that means that unvaccinated Blacks are 7.6% of the US population. 41% of whites have not received any shots. Whites are 61% of the US population.

Do the math. Unvaccinated whites are 25% of the US population. Now tell me again how "the majority of the unvaccinated are in the black population." The title of this thread is Who are the Naughty antivaxxer refusenicks?

Using the KFF data and a population of 333 million in the US there are about 83 million unvaccinated whites and 25 million unvaccinated Blacks. Keep in mind that the KFF data is NOT age adjusted. They simply looked at total numbers. As it is well known that the average age of both Black and Hispanic Americans is lower than whites because of life expectancy and birth rates, it is worth adding that far fewer people of color have qualified to be vaccinated.

The median age for whites per Pew analysis of census data in 2018 was 44. The median is the age where half the people are older and half younger. The median for Blacks is 34 and Hispanics is 30. Far more whites have been eligible for vaccination for longer periods as the age criteria have liberalized.

Again, I will point out that the best predictor of being a naughty refusenik is not ethnicity.

Statistics error on your part. You adjust blacks percentage unvaccinated by their percent of population but your poll doesn’t adjust for the fact that Republicans are only 25% of the adult population. Also your poll fails to mention how it deals with the bias of non response a lesson that should have learned in 2016. But your real motive in this “poll” was to slip a political statement past the moderators.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

This is puzzling. Is there any reason to believe that nasal viral load in the vaccinated versus the unvaccinated should be different regardless of Covid variant - whether it's the original, alpha, South African, etc.?

The nostrils and throat are the point of entry before the vaccine works its magic. But the vaccine shouldn't have any effect on the initial exposure load, or does it? I don't believe the vaccines have the ability to kill the virus on initial contact, but maybe I'm wrong.

That said, let's ignore the fact that the Delta variant is much more contagious for a moment. If the more subtle variants can be transmitted by droplets in the UNvaccinated's respiratory system, why shouldn't droplets in the vaccinated be just as prone to transmission, contrary to what the CDC and WHO has said?

And if they are indeed equally transmissible, that would explain why a much more contagious variant (Delta) is wreaking such havoc.

Think of it this way----the original is the father and the variants are his children, lets say all brothers. They share a lot of DNA, but one may be a great poet, another have a great singing voice, another a great golfer.

Likewise, some may result in higher viral loads, some may get killed earlier in the attempted infection process, some may get fatally damaged with early contact and rendered incapable of infecting others. We just don't know which is which at this point.

So the droplets from a vaccinated individual might be less infectious. But also remember, the only way this nasal carriage is an issue in the vaccinated is in a breakthrough case, which is a small percentage. The rest of the vaccinated are not carrying the virus (we think for now). And also, even for the small percentage of the vaccinated that can spread the virus, they have to find a susceptible host (generally an unvaccinated person). And that is why the CDC guidance to have vaccinated individuals "mask up" is , well, questionable. (I was going to say a joke, but there are many who have lost a loved one and I wouldn't want to offend them)

[blueash]

Originally Posted by John41

Statistics error on your part. You adjust blacks percentage unvaccinated by their percent of population but your poll doesn’t adjust for the fact that Republicans are only 25% of the adult population. Also your poll fails to mention how it deals with the bias of non response a lesson Hillary Clinton learned in 2016. But your real motive in this “poll” was to slip a political statement past the moderators.

You are wrong. There is no adjustment for political party in any racial or ethnic group. Read what I wrote again, and do the math yourself. I made absolutely zero comment about the political party of the vaccine refusers in the post you quoted. If you are interested in how political party alters vaccine acceptance, there is data available. I did link to a report examining vaccine refusers. It is not "my poll", it is not a poll at all. "An ongoing research project tracking the public’s attitudes and experiences with COVID-19 vaccinations."

For further edification, if you are interested and capable, I'd recommend reading another report from KFF.

It examines the attitude and reasons of those who have not been vaccinated. An important, very important, variable examined is people who report they are hesitant awaiting more information [these are people who have been waiting but eventually mostly getting shots] vs those who refuse and have no intention of getting a shot no matter what. Data is available. Interpretation is not difficult.

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

Any evidence to back this statement up? Both the JHU and WaPo Covid trackers seem to show that a whole lot of people are getting positive test results and a lot of people are being hospitalized but very few additional people are dying.




A statement currently without any evidence to back it up. Might be true but as others have pointed out, might be a negligible number.

Certainly not a super spreader by vaccinated people as someone posted up thread. I tried just now to respond to that absurd information but evidently that post was zapped as I was not able to access it to respond to it. Such misinformation is so dangerous in these uncertain times.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

There is fear, and then there is fear.

I read a story the day before yesterday, that the University of Wisconsin system is offering $7,000 scholarships to University students who have so far not gotten vaccinated.

If this bug is a thing to be so feared--why do supposedly intelligent people need such a large financial bribe to get it? Seems to me that if all those the-sky-is-falling stories were true, that people would be beating down the doors of clinics just to get their shots.

Instead, we have bribes.

Any good reason for this?

Emotions and misinformation can trump (no pun intended) logic and science. We are in Abe Lincoln's "you can fool some of the people all of the time" phase. Soon with enough DEATHS and hospitalization ALL of the people will be convinced to get vaccinated. But, likely by then, the VIRUS will have moved on and become stronger - maybe enough to require a NEW vaccine. Hope the UNvaccinated can find a way to rewind the clock to the days when America was really Great.

[coffeebean]

///

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Being educated does not provide immunity to misinformation about subjects you are not educated in.

Misinformation ........begets propaganda........begets dictatorship!

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by ROCKMUP

Some of us choose to not be a lab rat for the largest social experiment ever done.

I mean, its not like our own government would ever perform any experiments on its own citizens. Would it ?
I can think of at least 6 times since the mid 1800's.

Funny (not ha, ha) how judgmental and arrogant people are. I don't care if you wear a mask and I don't care if you get vaccinated. You do you.

I see this as a huge problem and a road block for us to ever see a light at the end of the tunnel with this mess we are all in. EVERYONE should care. Your attitude is what is going to prolong this pandemic in our country. I hope more people do care and not take the easy way out as you seem to have done.