[Wiotte]

Originally Posted by manaboutown

How long do they let the concrete slabs cure before framing starts?

When the framers arrive [emoji3]


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[mulligan]

I've seen them start next day

[graciegirl]

I have a vivid memory of three years ago where the entire side of a house here had a sinkhole under it but the slab held.

[Chellybean]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I have a vivid memory of three years ago where the entire side of a house here had a sinkhole under it but the slab held.

That is because all the re bar they use!

[DangeloInspections]

Originally Posted by CFrance

This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?

While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.

We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.

These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.

The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.

The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.

These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.


I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.

Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?

I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.

If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.

Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.

It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.

In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.

I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.

No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.

Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by DangeloInspections

While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.

We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.

These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.

The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.

The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.

These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.


I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.

Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?

I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.

If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.

Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.

It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.

In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.

I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.

No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.

Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI

You deserve the widespread approval you have as an inspector and as a person. Proud to know you, sir.

[Wiotte]

Originally Posted by DangeloInspections

While some home inspectors may not go up into the attic, we do. We typically go all over the attic and on most models we can easily see above the lanai, although there are a couple of models where the lanai is not accessible at all. However, most are.

We find these Lanai cracks all the time. So, to answer the question, we DO find them. I would say we find Lanai cracks on close to 40% of the homes we inspect. We ALWAYS put them in the report. We take pictures of them, and put blue tape on all of them we can get to. When we find more than one, we typically find them every 4 feet, down the seam.

These cracks are known to get bigger and smaller sometimes, as the heat and humidity change. Some of course are obvious and some are so small it is almost impossible to see. Often, we find them and the homeowner has never noticed them.

The problem here is not weather we find them or not......the problem is how they are dealt with or repaired AFTER we find them, document them and have them in the report.

The framing, the trusses are built and designed according to code. The trusses are here in Florida 24" on center.....same with the interior partitions. So a 4' wide sheet of drywall is attached in three places. If the spacing was 16" on center, (common up north with snow loads, etc), there would be 4 points of attachment. Often, the trusses are perpendicular to the drywall sheets, thus can have even more screws, etc across the body of the sheet.

These trusses at 24" on center pass code. They also pass the Architectural design. Most importantly, this method is approved by YOUR county building inspector, commonly known as the AHJ, or the "authority having jurisdiction". He trumps EVERYONE....even the building code.


I take GREAT offense to the post who inferred that home inspectors do not include this in the report because we do not want to "rock the boat" with warranty. There are many here who post whom I have I'm sure done their inspection and they can attest to the fact that this issue WAS in their report. As an ASHI Certified inspector for over 10 years, I have an ethical obligation to only my client. To infer otherwise is like accusing a doctor of not finding an illness because he is in bed with the insurance company. Although I do have a good relationship with warranty, I have very many times "gone to bat" for the homeowner on a contentious issue and proved my case to the benefit of the homeowner. There are issues I used to find all the time that I no longer find because the builders have changed their method to a better way because they realized we were right and they no longer wanted to have to go back to fix the issue over and over again.

Anyway, getting back to the ceiling issue.....why does this happen and what is the best way to fix it?

I am not an engineer. I have built houses and I feel knowledgeable enough to try to answer this. When I have difficult or recurring cracks in drywall I use a stronger drywall compound, like Durabond 90. I may also use more screws. Cracks typically do not get permanently fixed with a little caulk and paint.

If I were building a lanai with a drywall ceiling, I might consider installing furring strips 16" o.c. between the trusses. I would use durabond 90. I would paint this ceiling with an elastomeric paint. I would insulate above this lanai, even though it is unconditioned space. I would always install a light colored roof. Many of these ideas were actually in that engineers report your POA hired....so I am not too far off base.

Actually, I would most likely not use drywall in this application, knowing the many problems others have experienced. I personally love the look of vinyl beadboard soffit. I used it on my northern home across the front porch, (no Lanai's in western NY, lol) and it looked amazing and never had a problem.

It looked great, was easy to clean and actually less labor intensive. I have bought this product from T&D off of 301. They sell matching J channel for it and it does NOT look cheap.

In closing, we also find this to a lesser extent in some garages.....for much the same reasons. I currently live in a 10 year old Premier type home, and I have a good crack in MY garage. I'm too busy doing inspections to get around to fixing it...my wifes honey-do list comes first. When I do fix it I will do all the things I mentioned above.

I apologize for the long post, and hope I did not offend anyone. I am only here to help. The bottom line here, (and many here can attest to this) is when we do warranty inspections we often find many things that the homeowner did not even know about. Most of those things would be costly to have to pay for the repair, so the cost of the inspection is often many times a small fraction of what the repairs would cost if you had to pay for them. Most of the time they are fixed by warranty well. Sometimes they may not be. We find the issues, document them, and much more often than not they are repaired well by the builders.

No one bats 1000. This IS a very common contentious issue. I hope I helped at least a bit here.

Respectfully, Frank D'Angelo, ACI

This is what I responded to:

Originally Posted by CFrance

This question is actually for Frank DeAngelo and the like, because I really don't know the answer... Why don't the home inspectors who people hire (before the one-year mark of buying a new house) catch this problem? Surely they go up in the attic... can they see there's not enough support there for the garage ceilings?

Do you report to the Warranty Department that there isn’t enough support up there ? I understand the 48” to 24” ratio. You may report the cracks but do you tell the homeowner why they are occurring ?
I stand by my statement Frank. I meant no disrespect.


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[DangeloInspections]

Thank you Wiotte,

No offense taken. Every Lanai configuration is different. Sometimes it depends weather the trusses are parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the drywall. To answer your question, yes, I have discussed this with some of the builders and with warranty.

My opinion may not hold as much weight when compared to the engineers, Architects and the county building inspector. Of course, the answer to all this is somewhat subjective.

This could be caused by many contributing factors. For instance, I hardly never see these cracks in a courtyard villa Lanai. Perhaps because they are generally smaller? I see less of these cracks when the lanai is insulated....BUT, typically a lanai is insulated because it is enclosed....thus it may be because the temperatures on both sides of the drywall would be in that case close to the same.

So....is it strictly a framing issue? Perhaps not, as the rest of your home is framed the same way, and while we DO find SOME cracks inside the home, not nearly as much. SO...if it were strictly a framing issue, one might think you would see the same cracks all over the inside, which we do not.

Would we perhaps see less Lanai cracks if the framing were different...? Probably. It only makes sense that the more nailing area one has and the more points of attachment, the less movement you may have. But that is NOT the same as saying the current framing is deficient. That is like saying, in a car crash, would my car crunch less if I had big steel I beams welded to frame....sure it would. That does not mean that my car, without the big I beams was built wrong.

I think the cause of these Lanai cracks is a combination of many issues....more screws may help, different drywall mud may help, insulation may help, bridging may help, stiffeners may help, different paint may help, etc, etc.

Is it a attic temperature issue? Perhaps. Can the drywall mud they use take the temperature extremes? Would using Durabond 90 be a better choice? Does the color of the roof matter? They are now finding that a light roof uses 5% less energy to condition the home than a dark roof.

Would a elastomeric paint bridge and hide any cracks the drywall mud may show?

So it could be any of these or a combination of them. Sometimes it is the framing. There is one model where we almost ALWAYS find a crack in a certain specific area in a specific room. That particular crack is most likely a framing issue. Every model has different things we KNOW we will find. When you do over 500 warranty inspections a year in The Villages you know what to look for in the different homes. And while The Villages builds a good home, nothing this side of Heaven is perfect.

Personally, I think the lanai ceiling issue is a combination of all of these things.

As I said before, when you think of the cost of the drywall, the texture finishing, the labor, etc, compared to using a vinyl beadboard soffit product, I would think the latter would be less costly and I KNOW less problematic. But that is only my opinion....I am not a builder, or an engineer, or a developer, or the AHJ.

As a home inspector, this is the stuff we think about all the time. We go to seminars that teach on this stuff. We study about every aspect of home building everyday. This kind of stuff is basically our life.

I've actually had homeowners think that because the Lanai ceiling looks alot like the stucco, they can power wash it. They think it is cement stucco and are shocked to find out it is regular interior drywall. Note to all....do not power wash it. It is the same materials as the ceilings inside your home. It will not take power washing.

Hope that helps!

Frank D'Angelo ACI

[Wiotte]

Originally Posted by DangeloInspections

Thank you Wiotte,



No offense taken. Every Lanai configuration is different. Sometimes it depends weather the trusses are parallel or perpendicular to the direction of the drywall. To answer your question, yes, I have discussed this with some of the builders and with warranty.



My opinion may not hold as much weight when compared to the engineers, Architects and the county building inspector. Of course, the answer to all this is somewhat subjective.



This could be caused by many contributing factors. For instance, I hardly never see these cracks in a courtyard villa Lanai. Perhaps because they are generally smaller? I see less of these cracks when the lanai is insulated....BUT, typically a lanai is insulated because it is enclosed....thus it may be because the temperatures on both sides of the drywall would be in that case close to the same.



So....is it strictly a framing issue? Perhaps not, as the rest of your home is framed the same way, and while we DO find SOME cracks inside the home, not nearly as much. SO...if it were strictly a framing issue, one might think you would see the same cracks all over the inside, which we do not.



Would we perhaps see less Lanai cracks if the framing were different...? Probably. It only makes sense that the more nailing area one has and the more points of attachment, the less movement you may have. But that is NOT the same as saying the current framing is deficient. That is like saying, in a car crash, would my car crunch less if I had big steel I beams welded to frame....sure it would. That does not mean that my car, without the big I beams was built wrong.



I think the cause of these Lanai cracks is a combination of many issues....more screws may help, different drywall mud may help, insulation may help, bridging may help, stiffeners may help, different paint may help, etc, etc.



Is it a attic temperature issue? Perhaps. Can the drywall mud they use take the temperature extremes? Would using Durabond 90 be a better choice? Does the color of the roof matter? They are now finding that a light roof uses 5% less energy to condition the home than a dark roof.



Would a elastomeric paint bridge and hide any cracks the drywall mud may show?



So it could be any of these or a combination of them. Sometimes it is the framing. There is one model where we almost ALWAYS find a crack in a certain specific area in a specific room. That particular crack is most likely a framing issue. Every model has different things we KNOW we will find. When you do over 500 warranty inspections a year in The Villages you know what to look for in the different homes. And while The Villages builds a good home, nothing this side of Heaven is perfect.



Personally, I think the lanai ceiling issue is a combination of all of these things.



As I said before, when you think of the cost of the drywall, the texture finishing, the labor, etc, compared to using a vinyl beadboard soffit product, I would think the latter would be less costly and I KNOW less problematic. But that is only my opinion....I am not a builder, or an engineer, or a developer, or the AHJ.



As a home inspector, this is the stuff we think about all the time. We go to seminars that teach on this stuff. We study about every aspect of home building everyday. This kind of stuff is basically our life.



I've actually had homeowners think that because the Lanai ceiling looks alot like the stucco, they can power wash it. They think it is cement stucco and are shocked to find out it is regular interior drywall. Note to all....do not power wash it. It is the same materials as the ceilings inside your home. It will not take power washing.



Hope that helps!



Frank D'Angelo ACI

Good summation. Now, if only the various builders will do the right thing and fix the existing issues and change the way they construct going forward. At that point, our houses would be close to perfect. After all, these homes are what we all worked for all those years.


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[rustyp]

///

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Attachment 74217

I used vinyl soffit for ceiling in this sewing room I built for my wife above our garage up north. Looks good for this application however it's a garage. It does do some funny shadow effects with the light reflecting off the grooves. I'm not sure about using this is an enclosed lanai that one is trying to make look like a formal part of the house. Nor do I know what code allows for inside a house. That is J channel on the outer edges. But I have to screw each soffit piece lengthwise about 16 inches to prevent seeing sag. I do think it would look OK for an outdoor application plus has the benefit of hosing it off.

Very pretty. You wife is fortunate to have your skills.

[Chellybean]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Very pretty. You wife is fortunate to have your skills.

Gracie Are you saying your hubby does NOT do your honey do list, poor lady!!!
Just kidding Gracie i thought i throw a little humor in this post.

[villagetinker]

ALL,

First, Frank, thank you for you replies and input. I have used Frank in the past and found him to be very knowledgeable and trustworthy.

Second, after doing some additional research, I am going to attempt the repair myself using a FLEXIBLE filler for the cracks, my hope will be that this material will shrink and expand enough to NOT crack in the future. I am also going to attempt to use the same material for the knock down finish for the same reasons. This will be an interesting experiment, and will probably take a year to see if it works.

Wish me luck!

[DangeloInspections]

You got it VT....!

Based on everything posted, I believe the factors involved is the movement of the components of course causing the cracking. Any way to minimize that movement would help.

Extreme temperature swings in the attic, the strength of the drywall mud in the seams, the points of attachment, etc, all come into play.

When I built my home up North, (and yes I know there are HUGE differences here and there), I also GLUED and screwed drywall sheet to every stud and rafter in the home. After ten years I still had not one crack or screw pop.

I am not saying that The Villages should do this on the whole house.....but perhaps that too would help at least in the Lanai ceilings. The additional cost and labor would be minimal.

Part of the problem here is that the current method completely passes code 100%. This is not a code problem....more of a "best practice in light of a unique but common problem" situation.

Sometimes when you have a recurring problem you need to explore methodology that exceeds minimum code standards to solve the problem.

Often it costs far less to prevent a problem than it does to fix a problem afterwards.

Frank

[Chellybean]

Originally Posted by DangeloInspections

You got it VT....!

Based on everything posted, I believe the factors involved is the movement of the components of course causing the cracking. Any way to minimize that movement would help.

Extreme temperature swings in the attic, the strength of the drywall mud in the seams, the points of attachment, etc, all come into play.

When I built my home up North, (and yes I know there are HUGE differences here and there), I also GLUED and screwed drywall sheet to every stud and rafter in the home. After ten years I still had not one crack or screw pop.

I am not saying that The Villages should do this on the whole house.....but perhaps that too would help at least in the Lanai ceilings. The additional cost and labor would be minimal.

Part of the problem here is that the current method completely passes code 100%. This is not a code problem....more of a "best practice in light of a unique but common problem" situation.

Sometimes when you have a recurring problem you need to explore methodology that exceeds minimum code standards to solve the problem.

Often it costs far less to prevent a problem than it does to fix a problem afterwards.

Frank

well said, but gluing a lid is something that needs to be done and gluing a seam is something a drywall contractor will not do in fear of glue coming through the seam and causing problems for taping.
Not a win win situation but a good glued joint would solve a lot of issues.
I glued the drywall joints to the truss in the attic and it solved a lot of movement problems, but to get up there is a chore. I used Locktite 3x in a chalk tube! (lots of it.) L.O.L
In the north if you didn't glue baseboard and window molding corners you would have separation and problems.
Here it seams chalk is there friend here in the villages.L.O.L