[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=Aces4;2001625]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

This is medical science, "ideology" has nothing to do with it. I don't know your ideology and you don't know mine.
So, scientifically, how is anyone to know that these anecdotes are "factual cases". Where's the proof, the scientific proof? Is the whole world just supposed to take someone's word for it? And even if they are trying to be truthful, their facts and conclusions are probably way off the mark

What needs to be done to answer to question would be a large, multi-centered, randomized, double blind study. Take 5,000 people who have been vaccinated and 5,000 that refused and test them weekly for COVID and interview them for symptoms. Keep a chart of when they were vaccinated. Then we could get a better idea of the breakthrough rate as well as the time course of immunity from the vaccine. I don't know of any group that is actually conducting such a study.[/


Then you have no grounds on which to base your facts because statistics are missing and most people dealing with covid are not being tracked! It’s all hyperbole.

Correct---that was my point---we don't have good data.

What I have is an educated guess as to breakthrough rate for the delta variant based on the breakthrough rate for the original virus and my general knowledge of virology and epidemiology. And that guess is in the 2-8% range. If anyone has more medical education, experience and knowledge of virology, I'd like to hear their guess, because there is nothing to say mine is absolutely correct.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=jswirs;2001627]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

OK, GE, I'll take a page out of your book....... Time for remedial reading and comprehension 101.... go back to my post and you will see I said "It has not been widely used for a sufficient amount of time". Please notice there is no period after the word "used", therefore, you took my statement out of context, and your snarky remark, as highlighted above, is foolishly misplaced. And, speaking of "growing a second nose", maybe, someday, some of us will grow less egotistical...but I doubt it.

No, I read your post and did not take it out of context. There was a "widely used" aspect and a "sufficient time" aspect. I addressed the widely used with the FACT that hundreds of millions have received vaccines, and I don't see anything "snarky" in that highlighted text. I merely implied the "sufficient" time aspect knowing study designs do look for signs that would point to a some late side effects, but that we don't know yet. However, knowing how a mRNA vaccine works, it is unlikely to cause any long term effects but I could be wrong.(In which case I'm in good company). So if anyone was taking a post out of context, it wasn't me.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Thank you for making my case, incomplete and cherry picked numbers are being utilized. How can anyone with analyzation skills swallow the synopsis provided to the public?

It might help here if the fellow poster who developed covid after full vaccination would share with us how intensely he was questioned, evaluated and tracked following his harrowing case of covid. I could use his name but respect his privacy if he desires.

The numbers being used are not cherry picked or incomplete.

Do you dispute that over 90% of the hospitalizations are unvaccinated? Do you have an explanation for that other than the effectiveness of the vaccine?

[Aces4]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;2001634][QUOTE=Aces4;2001625]

Correct---that was my point---we don't have good data.



Agreed, that is the point to be made. We simply don’t have true data for this virus and why personally, I continue respect the fact that we are all spreaders until proven otherwise

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Bill14564

The numbers being used are not cherry picked or incomplete.

Do you dispute that over 90% of the hospitalizations are unvaccinated? Do you have an explanation for that other than the effectiveness of the vaccine?

Do you have the absolute data for complicated and numbers of breakthrough in the vaccinated? Data is missing including tracking and spread of covid from the vaccinated.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=Aces4;2001642][QUOTE=golfing eagles;2001634]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Correct---that was my point---we don't have good data.



Agreed, that is the point to be made. We simply don’t have true data for this virus and why personally, I continue respect the fact that we are all spreaders until proven otherwise

Sure, that's safe, no problem. But realize it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a large percentage of those vaccinated are "spreaders", based on data for breakthrough from the original virus and the percentage of hospitalizations, ICU admissions, and deaths of the UNvaccinated. Yet, you are correct, any one given vaccinated person could still be a threat.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Do you have the absolute data for complicated and numbers of breakthrough in the vaccinated? Data is missing including tracking and spread of covid from the vaccinated.

Do I have the private personal and medical details of the 14,115 vaccinated individuals who were hospitalized through 7 September? Absolutely not and I am glad that private data has not been made public. The counts and the limited demographics that are available are sufficient.

Do you dispute that over 90% of the hospitalizations are in the unvaccinated? If not, do you have an explanation for that other than the effectiveness of the vaccines?

[jswirs]

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;2001484]

Originally Posted by jswirs

Yep---you never know if 20 years from now you'll grow a second nose in the middle of your forehead

BTW, hundreds of millions vaccinated is probably considered "widely used", and the study designs will weed out some, not all of the potential long term effects, if any, which is doubtful.

[QUOTE=golfing eagles;2001637]

Originally Posted by jswirs

No, I read your post and did not take it out of context. There was a "widely used" aspect and a "sufficient time" aspect. I addressed the widely used with the FACT that hundreds of millions have received vaccines, and I don't see anything "snarky" in that highlighted text. I merely implied the "sufficient" time aspect knowing study designs do look for signs that would point to a some late side effects, but that we don't know yet. However, knowing how a mRNA vaccine works, it is unlikely to cause any long term effects but I could be wrong.(In which case I'm in good company). So if anyone was taking a post out of context, it wasn't me.

I would say nice try, but it really wasn't. I know better.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=jswirs;2001651][QUOTE=golfing eagles;2001484]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

I would say nice try, but it really wasn't. I know better.

Do or do not, there is no try----Yoda, 1980

I did.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Y'all need to learn how to quote posts on this forum.

[Blueblaze]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

So, let's repeat what you just posted:

"The mRNA in the vaccine teaches your cells how to make copies of the spike protein. If you are exposed to the real virus later, your body will recognize it and know how to fight it off".

This is what you took to mean that the vaccine is "gene manipulation"????

OMG, a perfect example of regurgitating something found on a web page with absolutely zero understanding of what it means.

OK, time for remedial genetics 101:

A gene is a sequence of DNA that resides at a specific location on a chromosome and codes for a single protein/enzyme. We have over 100,000 of these genes, and they are separated by sequences of DNA that we do not fully understand, called intercalated DNA. The DNA, when needed to produce its end product, gets "unzipped" by a specific enzyme (RNA polymerase) and transcribes its code to a template known as mRNA. The mRNA then exits the nucleus of the cell, enters the cytoplasm and a ribosome finds it and copies the mRNA to its invers, tRNA. The tRNA then assembles amino acids into a protein chain according to the code.

Follow so far?????

The mRNA vaccines simply enter cells and their code gets translated on ribosomes via the same mechanism to its end product, which in this case is the spike protein of the COVID virus.

IT DOES NOT TOUCH YOUR DNA, IT DOES NOT ALTER ANY GENES, IT SIMPLY ACTS LIKE YOUR OWN mRNA. CLEAR ENOUGH?

You described how the mRNA vaccines work to trick cells to make spike vaccines. Although that is not gene MODIFICATION, it is certainly gene MANIPULATION.

Here's the bottom line -- your cells don't know how to make ANY proteins without genetic instructions. The ONLY way to "teach" a cell to do anything is to manipulate its genes!

But you forgot to tell us how the J&J works. Its actually DOES manipulate the DNA genes found in the nucleus! It does this by injecting an (assumed) harmless LIVE VIRUS that has been genetically altered to carry the gene necessary to make a human cell produce the Covid "spike" protein. This is what ALL viruses do -- they insert their genetic material into the DNA of the host cell, to force it to make copies of the virus. In this case, J&J altered a benign virus to make it make copes of the spike protein instead of the virus itself.

The assumption with all of these gene manipulation vaccines is that the cells altered aren't likely to be eggs or sperm that would cause an inherited defect, and since the altered cells will soon die off anyway, there should be no lasting damage. But, of course, there is no way to be certain -- it's just unlikely that the vaccine mRNA or J&J virus could make it all the way to your ovaries before it encounters a cell (unlikely -- much like your odds of dying from a cold virus).

But there is no way to be certain that the genes altered or manipulated won't have unintended consequences in some of the trillions of possible combinations of human genes that exist in the wild. We have already discovered that some people develop the clotting disorder that nearly killed my neighbor. What about immune system disorders? What if your immune system suddenly decided that all muscle cells are a danger that must be destroyed because the ones in your arm where you got the shot are producing millions of foreign "spike" proteins?

But the side effect I'm worried about is sterility or birth defects. Nobody knows what happens to a 10-year-old child who's been exposed to this particular gene manipulation, 10 years from now, when they start having kids. Probably nothing. But I would rather we not commit the entire human race to this experiment. Why not just let adults make their own informed choices about themselves and their kids?

This is a disease of old people. We're the ones at risk, not the children. Why don't we take the chance on this risky new technology and leave our grand-kids out of it until we have a few years of history with it?

At this point, we don't know what we don't know.

[golfing eagles]

Originally Posted by Blueblaze

You described how the mRNA vaccines work to trick cells to make spike vaccines. Although that is not gene MODIFICATION, it is certainly gene MANIPULATION.

Here's the bottom line -- your cells don't know how to make ANY proteins without genetic instructions. The ONLY way to "teach" a cell to do anything is to manipulate its genes!

But you forgot to tell us how the J&J works. Its actually DOES manipulate the DNA genes found in the nucleus! It does this by injecting an (assumed) harmless LIVE VIRUS that has been genetically altered to carry the gene necessary to make a human cell produce the Covid "spike" protein. This is what ALL viruses do -- they insert their genetic material into the DNA of the host cell, to force it to make copies of the virus. In this case, J&J altered a benign virus to make it make copes of the spike protein instead of the virus itself.

The assumption with all of these gene manipulation vaccines is that the cells altered aren't likely to be eggs or sperm that would cause an inherited defect, and since the altered cells will soon die off anyway, there should be no lasting damage. But, of course, there is no way to be certain -- it's just unlikely that the vaccine mRNA or J&J virus could make it all the way to your ovaries before it encounters a cell (unlikely -- much like your odds of dying from a cold virus).

But there is no way to be certain that the genes altered or manipulated won't have unintended consequences in some of the trillions of possible combinations of human genes that exist in the wild. We have already discovered that some people develop the clotting disorder that nearly killed my neighbor. What about immune system disorders? What if your immune system suddenly decided that all muscle cells are a danger that must be destroyed because the ones in your arm where you got the shot are producing millions of foreign "spike" proteins?

But the side effect I'm worried about is sterility or birth defects. Nobody knows what happens to a 10-year-old child who's been exposed to this particular gene manipulation, 10 years from now, when they start having kids. Probably nothing. But I would rather we not commit the entire human race to this experiment. Why not just let adults make their own informed choices about themselves and their kids?

This is a disease of old people. We're the ones at risk, not the children. Why don't we take the chance on this risky new technology and leave our grand-kids out of it until we have a few years of history with it?

At this point, we don't know what we don't know.

Awful lot of words to again spread misinformation.

These vaccines are NOT gene manipulation. You made up your own definition of manipulation and then applied it to these vaccines. That's a big no-no

And J&J is a viral vector vaccine, not a mRNA vaccine like Pfizer and Moderna

And from the CDC website

"Facts about COVID-19 Viral Vector Vaccines
They cannot give someone COVID-19 or other infections.

Viral vectors cannot cause infection with COVID-19 or with the virus used as the vaccine vector.
They do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way.

The genetic material delivered by the viral vector does not integrate into a person’s DNA."

Game, set, match----not that you ever had a chance

[coffeebean]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

This is medical science, "ideology" has nothing to do with it. I don't know your ideology and you don't know mine.
So, scientifically, how is anyone to know that these anecdotes are "factual cases". Where's the proof, the scientific proof? Is the whole world just supposed to take someone's word for it? And even if they are trying to be truthful, their facts and conclusions are probably way off the mark

What needs to be done to answer to question would be a large, multi-centered, randomized, double blind study. Take 5,000 people who have been vaccinated and 5,000 that refused and test them weekly for COVID and interview them for symptoms. Keep a chart of when they were vaccinated. Then we could get a better idea of the breakthrough rate as well as the time course of immunity from the vaccine. I don't know of any group that is actually conducting such a study.[/


Then you have no grounds on which to base your facts because statistics are missing and most people dealing with covid are not being tracked! It’s all hyperbole.

However...........the fact remains that a large percentage (90%) of people who are hospitalized and dying are the UN-vaccinated. To me, this pandemic remains a pandemic of the UN-vaccinated.

[golfing eagles]

[QUOTE=coffeebean;2001679]

Originally Posted by Aces4

However...........the fact remains that a large percentage (90%) of people who are hospitalized and dying are the UN-vaccinated. To me, this pandemic remains a pandemic of the UN-vaccinated.

How did my post and that , well, questionable response get merged into one in the post you quoted? I disavow any responsibility for that last sentence.

[Blueblaze]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Awful lot of words to again spread misinformation.

These vaccines are NOT gene manipulation. You made up your own definition of manipulation and then applied it to these vaccines. That's a big no-no

And J&J is a viral vector vaccine, not a mRNA vaccine like Pfizer and Moderna

And from the CDC website

"Facts about COVID-19 Viral Vector Vaccines
They cannot give someone COVID-19 or other infections.

Viral vectors cannot cause infection with COVID-19 or with the virus used as the vaccine vector.
They do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way.

The genetic material delivered by the viral vector does not integrate into a person’s DNA."

Game, set, match----not that you ever had a chance

Nobody ever said the "viral vector" J&J vaccine can give you Covid.

But YOU said that it doesn't modify the host DNA. So please explain how a "viral vector" vaccine works, because the available descriptive materials that I've been able to find indicate that it works exactly the same as any other viral gene editing technique, to insert genes into the nuclear DNA.

And by the way, why do you think this is some sort of game to be won? This argument over forcing people to accept experimental vaccines strikes me as an issue with far reaching ramifications beyond just protecting people from a minor death risk. You're basically just saying "take the shot, you're too stupid to understand why". Rule by "experts" has turned out to be one of the most deadly ideas humans have ever come up with. It killed about 100 million people over last century.

Look, I have respectfully offered an opinion, and backed it up with facts, directly from the CDC. Are you unable to do that without the rudeness? It just makes you sound like the kind of egotistical know-it-all whose opinions normal people just ignore. It certainly doesn't help your argument.