The "Stay Home Order"

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  #31  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:36 PM
ffresh ffresh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeod View Post
There is no constitutional violation if the governor closes churches temporarily. He would not be banning a religion or establishing a state religion. He is using his authority to stop groups of more than a certain number from gathering in order to stop the spread of the virus as much as possible.

There is a current situation in CA where parishioners of a church have an inordinate number of positive virus tests due to assembling for worship and bible study. Who knows how many friends and neighbors they may have infected.

There is another thread on TOTV that describes the loss of a relative and illness of a spouse and nephew due to contracting the virus perhaps from a shopping trip.

It is for the good of all of us to not gather in groups, maintain social distancing, and sanitize ourselves and our environment as much as possible.
Non sequitur … first, you state that the governor closing churches is not a constitutional violation and, from there, proceed to give pragmatic reasons why it should be done. When was the last time you opened a copy of the Florida Constitution:

Article IV, Florida Constitution - Ballotpedia

Article IV, Florida Constitution Section 1
(d) The governor shall have power to call out the militia to preserve the public peace, execute the laws of the state, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't find anything in there about closing churches or Stay-at-Home orders - good idea or not - recommendations/advisories are far different from ordering any peaceful, law-abiding citizen to remain under house arrest!

Feel free, however, to remain under self-imposed lockdown until this blows over

Fred
  #32  
Old 04-04-2020, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by junction29
People who go on about their constitutional rights are totally, but totally missing the point! 👿

These measures are not about YOU, they are to protect everyone and no one, rights or not, has the right to threaten the lives of their fellow citizens. 👿


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Originally Posted by sdedes View Post
Agreed
People who don't "go on about their Constitutional Rights", I would venture to say are missing the point and, unfortunately, for those of us who do have reverence for the Document, may assist in losing those rights (or many of them) for the rest of us, because of their lack of appreciation for what is entailed!

Fred
  #33  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Inexes@aol.com View Post
And therein, the problem.... if they were too stupid to stay home prior to the order..... they are most likely not going to obey the order....
They couldn't even abide by the social distancing. It was shameful behavior from those spring breakers. Foolish kids who were clueless or just didn't care.
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  #34  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffresh View Post
Non sequitur … first, you state that the governor closing churches is not a constitutional violation and, from there, proceed to give pragmatic reasons why it should be done. When was the last time you opened a copy of the Florida Constitution:

Article IV, Florida Constitution - Ballotpedia

Article IV, Florida Constitution Section 1
(d) The governor shall have power to call out the militia to preserve the public peace, execute the laws of the state, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't find anything in there about closing churches or Stay-at-Home orders - good idea or not - recommendations/advisories are far different from ordering any peaceful, law-abiding citizen to remain under house arrest!

Feel free, however, to remain under self-imposed lockdown until this blows over

Fred
Supreme Court of the US --Employement Div., v Smith

States can use Police Powers to enforce orders to protect the health and safety of citizens . Such orders can be enforced if they are generally applied and not specically aimed at practices of the specific religious group
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  #35  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sdedes View Post
Seriously? This is not just happening to this country (where we have a written constitution). It's happening to the whole WORLD! The Constitution should morally be modified in situations such as this pandemic. I really don't believe GOD will mind if I worship him at home for a while in order to save my fellow brothers and sisters lives!
"morally be modified" Please be kind enough to enlighten me as to what this even means. There is a process in place, I'm sure you realize, to amend the Constitution, although I'm not sure to which you are referring, state or federal. Are we to place arbitrary power in the hands of politicians to "morally" amend the Constitution as he/she sees fit? No thanks, I don't care to live under that type of government any more than I would care to be in a "high-stakes" card game where the rules are "morally modified" by anyone. Even though the "stakes" would be far less punitive

Fred

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  #36  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter View Post
Simple enough. Look at pictures of Florida beaches before orders were issued.
Or at our pools
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  #37  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:14 PM
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Personally, in a health crisis like this, I think the government has the authority to prohibit gatherings such as at a church without denying anyone their freedom of religion. No constitutional amendment needed.
  #38  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:18 PM
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The issue is not one of going to church or believing in God. The issue is whether it is morally or ethically appropriate for large groups of people to gather in an enclosed space given the ease this virus exhibits transferring from one to another. Worship is soothing but does not need a building to be achieved. Many religions are doing services on line. Not a bad idea. But as someone else said, you can worship without a service and anywhere.
  #39  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by sdedes View Post
If you are one of those people who is not taking this virus seriously by staying home I implore you to stop, and think, not of yourself but of others. You may not be worried about getting the virus yourself but you do not realize that until this pandemic is over there are millions of people out there who are not able to get the treatments they need for other life threatening conditions, such as cancer.
It didn’t hit home for me either until a close family member, young in age, was diagnosed with a Stage III, very aggressive, cancer and went to the hospital for a meeting with an oncologist. Immediate treatment was discussed but subsequently canceled as a nurse, who contracted the virus through continued socialization with her friends, exposed my loved one and her doctors. They all had to go into home quarantine for 14 days. Surgery was later performed but further treatment (drug trial by infusion) was cancelled as they were exposed AGAIN, at the hospital, and put into quarantine for another 14 days! The cancer could spread during this time!
People, PLEASE, stop thinking the “Stay at home” orders are unwarranted. If you are healthy you most likely won’t get sick, but if you do you will probably get over it. But If you don’t stay home you are selfishly contributing to the death of many, and not just from the virus. The “Stay Home” orders are so the spread can be stopped, then people who have life threatening conditions can get treatment, and those who are vulnerable don’t get the virus. It’s not just about you. It’s about everyone. “I’m bored at home” means “I, and others, “ARE SAFE”! Don’t be selfish, please STAY HOME!
Same thing happened to me. So sorry for you. Best advice to give anyone is to stay at home if you really love someone. Don't be sorry later.
  #40  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:34 PM
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As I understand the orders in other states as well as Florida the stay at home orders are not literal and you can go out to exercise, grocery and other shopping, medical and a few other things. The focus is on social distancing, hand washing and disinfecting. If the Churches can comply then I assume they will be open but evidently the Churches here (and other areas) in The Villages don't believe they can and have stopped services to protect their parishioners. If you don't fear this virus that's ok then do what makes you happy, just don't infringe on my space because I do fear this virus. If you think you know more than the CDC, Governors, Health organizations then follow your belief but don't infringe on my space because I do believe they know more than I do. Help keep me and others alive.
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  #41  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:35 PM
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It is really very simple.
Some very savvy medical people from around the world have come up with guidelines that have been deemed to keep you and others around you safe(r).

Setting race, religion or what ever other distraction one wants to argue about aside.

Can you do what you used to do or would like to do before the order and comply? No? Then no matter who or what you are or where.......to keep yourself and those around you safe..DO NOT DO IT OR PARTICIPATE.

Factor out the religious, political, special interest bias....help yourself and others get through this.

Argue Later!
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  #42  
Old 04-04-2020, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffresh View Post
Bagboy, I agree with your sentiments, however, we part "ways" when you say, "If you think the churches should be closed, fine. Close them." Rather, IMO, … fine, you're entitled to your opinion.

Fred
Fred,
As I've tried to make clear, I do not think the govenor should or can close churches. When I first saw the Tampa church open, disregarding the health and well being of their congregation, I thought it disgusting. Churches and church goers need to heed the call and stay home. BUT, and for all the posters who want to quote the Florida Constitution, and think that just because it or the US Constitution doesn't fit their morality, we don't have to abide by what's in it. I'm saying that just isn't so.
On the internet, some or most meanings of what people write can and most often is grossly misinterpreted. I'm in agreement with almost 100% of the sentiments in this thread. And maybe we can legally disregard the Constitution. Though I doubt seriously what is being called at Florida constitution can do that.
My saying close them if you wish is me throwing up my hands and saying "enough". Not interested in arguing about this, especially since I'm trying to agree with most.
  #43  
Old 04-04-2020, 04:22 PM
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I will not be surprised if/when a person attending a religious service dies due to catching the virus there, that institution or its representatives will be prosecuted for murder.
  #44  
Old 04-04-2020, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
I will not be surprised if/when a person attending a religious service dies due to catching the virus there, that institution or its representatives will be prosecuted for murder.
Not unless the Governor of Florida invokes a Closure order including church services. If the Governor would , in fact, include churches in his order, the path might be opened for civil suits against non compliant groups.
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  #45  
Old 04-04-2020, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ffresh View Post
You are kidding I hope! People of faith know that in times like this, especially, is when God is needed most! I can't imagine this type of utterance coming from other than an atheist, secular humanist, or agnostic … NO scratch the agnostic, I don't believe even they would utter such a misguided suggestion. And, no, I am not "accusing" you of being in that classification - I don't really care - that's your prerogative. I just can't believe anyone of faith would utter such nonsense. If YOU are so afraid, why don't YOU just remain indoors for the duration and have all of your meals delivered. I can't help but, trying to be introspective, even if I felt as you do, I would be reticent to make such a suggestion

Fred
Sorry Fred, but you are not only so wrong, your view puts people at risk of getting ill and dying. By going to church with dozens or hundreds of others, not puts just your fellow worshippers at risk, it puts everyone at risk who subsequently comes into contact with them, and those who come into contact with those people, and so on. As a Christian, maybe one of the judgement day questions is, "Did you, in trying to honor Me by attending church during the coronavirus epidemic, cause others to get sick or die?" This is not about if loving God He will protect you, it is about science and contagious diseases.
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