[sdedes]

Originally Posted by ffresh

Non sequitur … first, you state that the governor closing churches is not a constitutional violation and, from there, proceed to give pragmatic reasons why it should be done. When was the last time you opened a copy of the Florida Constitution:

Article IV, Florida Constitution - Ballotpedia

Article IV, Florida Constitution Section 1
(d) The governor shall have power to call out the militia to preserve the public peace, execute the laws of the state, suppress insurrection, or repel invasion.

Maybe I missed it but I didn't find anything in there about closing churches or Stay-at-Home orders - good idea or not - recommendations/advisories are far different from ordering any peaceful, law-abiding citizen to remain under house arrest!

Feel free, however, to remain under self-imposed lockdown until this blows over

Fred

It's people like you, with your "entitled" attitude, who are causing the continued spread of this virus and the deaths of many.

[sdedes]

Originally Posted by ffresh

"morally be modified" Please be kind enough to enlighten me as to what this even means. There is a process in place, I'm sure you realize, to amend the Constitution, although I'm not sure to which you are referring, state or federal. Are we to place arbitrary power in the hands of politicians to "morally" amend the Constitution as he/she sees fit? No thanks, I don't care to live under that type of government any more than I would care to be in a "high-stakes" card game where the rules are "morally modified" by anyone. Even though the "stakes" would be far less punitive

Fred

Fred

You don't appear to have any empathy or compassion for your fellow human beings Fred. That is sad. I hope if anyone knows who you really are they will stay away from you because they will probably catch the virus.

[OrangeBlossomBaby]

Originally Posted by bagboy

Some posters seem to think it's okay for a government official, in this case the govenor, to enact a freeze or ban or pause on citizens constitutional rights to freedom of religion. What would be next? One govenor bans freedom of the press, another bans citizens from speaking about the virus, another announces confiscation of weapons from homes during this dangerous crisis. Once the first ball drops, this violation of rights would never end.
Personally, I don't think any gathering of any group is okay, church or other. But if we want to spit in the face of our very, very smart founders and start violating whatever article or ammendment to the Constitution we deem disposable, this country is not going to be in a good place.

Shutting down churches is not a freeze ban or pause on freedom of religion. You can pray to your chosen deity at home, in your back yard, online at a streaming church service conducted by the pastor, who is in isolation at the church itself. You can go to a park bench and worship your chosen deity there. You can worship your chosen deity while in your car - stationary or driving.

There is nothing about a church that facilitates your ability - or inability - to worship your chosen deity. It's function is to provide a building for people to congregate and worship together.

It's the congregating part that's the problem, during an epidemic. Not the worshiping. Go, worship. You have my blessings. If your deity is anything like the traditional biblical christian god, then your deity already knows what you want, what you're thankful for, and that you are devoted to it.

If you need a congregation and a building with all the trappings in order to worship, I would sincerely suggest you look into the opportunity to worship a more understanding, generous, loving, and humane deity.

[ffresh]

Originally Posted by mneumann02

Sorry Fred, but you are not only so wrong, your view puts people at risk of getting ill and dying. By going to church with dozens or hundreds of others, not puts just your fellow worshippers at risk, it puts everyone at risk who subsequently comes into contact with them, and those who come into contact with those people, and so on. As a Christian, maybe one of the judgement day questions is, "Did you, in trying to honor Me by attending church during the coronavirus epidemic, cause others to get sick or die?" This is not about if loving God He will protect you, it is about science and contagious diseases.

NO, sorry but my viewpoint puts no one at risk. I am not ordering people to go to church or do anything else to their potential peril; that is the call for the individual to make, not me. On the other hand, I am not clamoring for the STATE to quash all civil liberties and FORCE people to comply with what I feel they should do. I am not calling for people to "write to the governor and demand he close the churches", ad nauseum. People who are very afraid of the current situation can, as I suggested in another post, remain in lockdown until this passes, order in all of your meals, and you'll probably be safe from Corona. But let others, including myself, go about our business, perhaps, at our own peril, just as we do every day, Corona or not. That's our/my choice to make and I don't want you to make it for me (or call the governor and say, "did you see what Fred is doing").

Fred

[ffresh]

Originally Posted by sdedes

It's people like you, with your "entitled" attitude, who are causing the continued spread of this virus and the deaths of many.

REALLY … how so? Now I'm responsible for the "deaths of many". GET A GRIP; your fear is causing you to lose all perspective.

Entitled … I'm only shocked that you didn't call me a racist. I know you meant to use the term in the most pejorative sense but, analytically speaking, I do suppose that I feel entitled - to my Constitutional Rights.

And, to be frank, it's people such as yourself who can TRULY be counted among the clueless.

Fred

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by ffresh

NO, sorry but my viewpoint puts no one at risk. I am not ordering people to go to church or do anything else to their potential peril; that is the call for the individual to make, not me. On the other hand, I am not clamoring for the STATE to quash all civil liberties and FORCE people to comply with what I feel they should do. I am not calling for people to "write to the governor and demand he close the churches", ad nauseum. People who are very afraid of the current situation can, as I suggested in another post, remain in lockdown until this passes, order in all of your meals, and you'll probably be safe from Corona. But let others, including myself, go about our business, perhaps, at our own peril, just as we do every day, Corona or not. That's our/my choice to make and I don't want you to make it for me (or call the governor and say, "did you see what Fred is doing").

Fred

"Ad Nauseum" here. To all who care , please email the Governor's office and ask that he include churches in his "temporary" closure order.

governorRon.Desantis@eog.myflorida.com

[ffresh]

Originally Posted by sdedes

Agreed

Originally Posted by Challenger

"Ad Nauseum" here. To all who care , please email the Governor's office and ask that he include churches in his "temporary" closure order.

governorRon.Desantis@eog.myflorida.com

Ahhh you got me there, Challenger, you da man! You got the last word

Churches must touch a nerve, huh?

Fred

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by ffresh

Ahhh you got me there, Challenger, you da man! You got the last word

Churches must touch a nerve, huh?

Fred

Only fundamentalist charlatans . Pastors should "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" Leading us into arrogant disregard for the health and safety of the community , does touch a nerve. and does not honor the admonition of Christ in the prayer that he allegedly gave his followers.

Thanks for asking

[sdedes]

Originally Posted by ffresh

NO, sorry but my viewpoint puts no one at risk. I am not ordering people to go to church or do anything else to their potential peril; that is the call for the individual to make, not me. On the other hand, I am not clamoring for the STATE to quash all civil liberties and FORCE people to comply with what I feel they should do. I am not calling for people to "write to the governor and demand he close the churches", ad nauseum. People who are very afraid of the current situation can, as I suggested in another post, remain in lockdown until this passes, order in all of your meals, and you'll probably be safe from Corona. But let others, including myself, go about our business, perhaps, at our own peril, just as we do every day, Corona or not. That's our/my choice to make and I don't want you to make it for me (or call the governor and say, "did you see what Fred is doing").

Fred

You are so misguided Fred. The Constitution be damned at this point. We all need to do our part for the greater good. Not just in our community, or our country, but the world. This pandemic will not "pass" while people like you chose to be selfish and not help stop the spread. Oh but wait, I forgot, it's about YOU and what YOU want. Who cares about anyone else.

[Mikeod]

Originally Posted by ffresh

NO, sorry but my viewpoint puts no one at risk. I am not ordering people to go to church or do anything else to their potential peril; that is the call for the individual to make, not me. On the other hand, I am not clamoring for the STATE to quash all civil liberties and FORCE people to comply with what I feel they should do. I am not calling for people to "write to the governor and demand he close the churches", ad nauseum. People who are very afraid of the current situation can, as I suggested in another post, remain in lockdown until this passes, order in all of your meals, and you'll probably be safe from Corona. But let others, including myself, go about our business, perhaps, at our own peril, [/B]just as we do every day, Corona or not. That's our/my choice to make and I don't want you to make it for me (or call the governor and say, "did you see what Fred is doing").

Fred

Therein lies your misconception. Unless you are completely isolated from any human contact, your desire to continue your normal activities puts not only yourself (which is certainly your prerogative), but puts any person you have any contact with directly or indirectly at risk, which is definitely not your prerogative.

[DianeM]

Originally Posted by ffresh

NO, sorry but my viewpoint puts no one at risk. I am not ordering people to go to church or do anything else to their potential peril; that is the call for the individual to make, not me. On the other hand, I am not clamoring for the STATE to quash all civil liberties and FORCE people to comply with what I feel they should do. I am not calling for people to "write to the governor and demand he close the churches", ad nauseum. People who are very afraid of the current situation can, as I suggested in another post, remain in lockdown until this passes, order in all of your meals, and you'll probably be safe from Corona. But let others, including myself, go about our business, perhaps, at our own peril, just as we do every day, Corona or not. That's our/my choice to make and I don't want you to make it for me (or call the governor and say, "did you see what Fred is doing").

Fred

How do you not get that each of our individual actions can affect someone else in a negative way. Most who live here are in the older category that can be most susceptible to whatever is floating around. You do not have the right to thumb your nose at conventional wisdom and experience. Talk about nasty entitled Villager. Wow!

[ffresh]

Originally Posted by sdedes

You are so misguided Fred. The Constitution be damned at this point. We all need to do our part for the greater good. Not just in our community, or our country, but the world. This pandemic will not "pass" while people like you chose to be selfish and not help stop the spread. Oh but wait, I forgot, it's about YOU and what YOU want. Who cares about anyone else.

First, let me say that I am always amused by folks, such as yourself, who levy ad hominem attacks against others who disagree with their opinions. Likewise, attributing traits, such as selfish, to someone whom you never met or talked to is presumptuous, at the very least. Now, having stated the glaringly obvious, allow me to state the following:

If a spark was lit in the mind of someone who read something I have written over the last couple of days, then, it was not wasted time on my part. If you actually read everything I've posted over the last few days, without allowing your own narrow-mindedness and debilitating prejudices from overwhelming your ability to read for comprehension, you would see that nowhere did I demand anyone to do anything against his will or good common sense. You are the one who is consumed with fear, to the extent that your discernment is compromised. I am not on this forum to convince anyone to do or not do anything in particular. I have merely attempted, in good faith, to caution against casting aside Constitutional safeguards, while clamoring for government to tell you what to do or not to do; perhaps you should, however! As Benjamin Franklin so wisely cautioned us:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

My cause was not to pontificate but to resurrect that wise admonition.

For anyone who may have been somehow convinced of that cause, I say GOOD. For anyone else who has remained intransigent toward that end, I say CARRY ON. I never try to convince steadfast believers about anything - life is too short. And, God willing I still will have one to live. I'm through with this thread.

Fred

[Tsego58]

I know god hears our prayers. Do you believe he needs you to draw a crowd. Most likely if a minister is guided by God's hand he will go to the hospital not the church and give guidance in this time of need. God places professionals in place on the earth to help us. CDC says no social gathering. The minister should be preaching about that through a news letter to your home. Ministers and churches cannot heal you but can help other professionals that can. Has the church thought of giving money or time to making mask, or ventilators, or setting up space for hospital patients. I see beautiful churches all around me. Not a social event..........

[mneumann02]

Originally Posted by ffresh

NO, sorry but my viewpoint puts no one at risk. I am not ordering people to go to church or do anything else to their potential peril; that is the call for the individual to make, not me. On the other hand, I am not clamoring for the STATE to quash all civil liberties and FORCE people to comply with what I feel they should do. I am not calling for people to "write to the governor and demand he close the churches", ad nauseum. People who are very afraid of the current situation can, as I suggested in another post, remain in lockdown until this passes, order in all of your meals, and you'll probably be safe from Corona. But let others, including myself, go about our business, perhaps, at our own peril, just as we do every day, Corona or not. That's our/my choice to make and I don't want you to make it for me (or call the governor and say, "did you see what Fred is doing").

Fred

If you think you have the "right" to put yourself and those around you at risk of illness and death by ignoring social distancing, do the rest of us have the "right" to know who you are, your church, and other members of your congregation so we can stay away from all of you?

[sdedes]

Originally Posted by ffresh

First, let me say that I am always amused by folks, such as yourself, who levy ad hominem attacks against others who disagree with their opinions. Likewise, attributing traits, such as selfish, to someone whom you never met or talked to is presumptuous, at the very least. Now, having stated the glaringly obvious, allow me to state the following:

If a spark was lit in the mind of someone who read something I have written over the last couple of days, then, it was not wasted time on my part. If you actually read everything I've posted over the last few days, without allowing your own narrow-mindedness and debilitating prejudices from overwhelming your ability to read for comprehension, you would see that nowhere did I demand anyone to do anything against his will or good common sense. You are the one who is consumed with fear, to the extent that your discernment is compromised. I am not on this forum to convince anyone to do or not do anything in particular. I have merely attempted, in good faith, to caution against casting aside Constitutional safeguards, while clamoring for government to tell you what to do or not to do; perhaps you should, however! As Benjamin Franklin so wisely cautioned us:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety".

My cause was not to pontificate but to resurrect that wise admonition.

For anyone who may have been somehow convinced of that cause, I say GOOD. For anyone else who has remained intransigent toward that end, I say CARRY ON. I never try to convince steadfast believers about anything - life is too short. And, God willing I still will have one to live. I'm through with this thread.

Fred

We are not giving up our liberties to pursue "a little temporary safety", you idiot. We're talking about LIFE and DEATH here. You're the one who doesn't get it. No one cares about the Constitution right now except selfish minded people like you. You don't get the fact that it's people like you who have caused our "rights" to be taken away to begin with, because you won't stay home and help stop the spread so we can get things back to normal.