12 killed in Paris by extreme Islamists.

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  #61  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by tomwed View Post
I have dealt with bullies in my life. They got hurt much more then I did. That's the first thing my dad taught me.

Are you asking me if Hitler knocked on my door and try to take my house what would I do? I would not give it to him.

That was a simple question.
And the correct answer.
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  #62  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:29 PM
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Default Violence is terrorism...

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Originally Posted by graciegirl View Post
The paper was one that pushed the edge, made everyone angry, held nothing sacred. The cartoon was one of An Isis member in black holding a knife to the throat of a person dressed as Allah and that figure saying, I am God, you idiot. Or at least that is what I got from the Today Show this morning. The retaliation was planned. The editor and the cartoonist rarely were there at the same time, some worked for other publications. They were all there when the gunman killed them, and the police officer(s) who protected them.

They have traced the gunmen to the northern edge of Paris to a downtrodden area where a heavy population of Islamic people live. A white athletic shoe fell out of the car driven by the gunman so the police surmised they were ready to change clothes and blend in.

Is this violence or is it terrorism?



How do you feel about this? What should be done? Does this scare you?
and while not all violence is caused by "terrorists"....all violence causes terror.

How do I feel? Like any sane person would feel...anger...fear would come if it happened close to home...hopefully it wouldn't paralyze me.

What should be done? If anyone had that answer they'd be worldwide heroes. Be aware...that's all you can do...if you think you see something suspicious then you call it in to the police...keep on living...if you stop living then they win...
  #63  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:30 PM
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it was a trick, survey like question designed to seek a certain response.

I do not view not letting anyone take my home as provoking anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #64  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:39 PM
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I don't think I could stand up to a terrorist or say anything that would evoke violence. But that doesn't make it right what they do.

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  #65  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:43 PM
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I do not view not letting anyone take my home as provoking anyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So… "provoking" a certain minority of people by publishing a cartoon or disparaging article on a particular subject is crossing a line? A line resulting in death?

Or… it is not provoking?

IF it is provoking as Tomwed and others suggest, then suspend free speech and stop provoking everyone.

If it's NOT provoking, then treat this as a terrorist attack and get the bad guys.
  #66  
Old 01-07-2015, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by B767drvr View Post
So "provoking" a certain minority of people by publishing a cartoon or disparaging article on a particular subject is crossing a line? A line resulting in death?

Or it is not provoking?
it is obviously in the eye/mind of the beholder. I answered that my not letting someone take my house is not viewed by ME as provoking anybody.

And I won't be provoked into a counterpoint variation on the theme
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  #67  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by billethkid View Post
it is obviously in the eye/mind of the beholder. I answered that my not letting someone take my house is not viewed by ME as provoking anybody.

And I won't be provoked into a counterpoint variation on the theme
I'm NOT arguing with you, per se, as I almost always agree with your point of view.

I'm simply pointing out the fallacy of being wishy-washy in free speech. Either a society has free speech or it does not. If we begin down the road of limiting "provocative speech" so as to not offend any group and receive their wrath, then it is surely a very slippery slope to limited speech.
  #68  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Beechie View Post
Political correctness can and will quell freedom of speech. Political satire is the exercising of that fundamental right in a democracy. Like it or not. We only agree with the satire if it suits our ideology. To accept and succumb to the horrible outcome as "expected" in light of their political satire is outrageous. To suggest they got what they deserved is a victory for the terrorists. Certainly the two dead policemen were just there to do their job. We have to stop making excuses for their rampant murdering sprees and we need to resist blaming the victims.
I agree with this, and also with Tal.

The location of the police officer who was shot as he lay on the sidewalk was less than half a block from our apartment in Paris. I would be walking past that site to go to the Sunday outdoor market up by Place de la Bastille. The paper's offices were a few doors away from a small store we frequented. We have been watching video of our apartment building and familiar streets all day. It is a solidly middle class neighborhood with many children. We used to walk a friend's elementary school son home from school past there. I am just heartsick.

The French have as strong, if not stronger, a dedication to freedom of speech as we Americans. They do not mess around with political correctness very much. They are also at the forefront in the fight against terrorists. However, there is a lot prejudice against Muslims and Jews there, esp. in Paris. There have been laws passed limiting the wearing of certain items of clothing in certain places (mostly schools) and others proposed that would seem to be designed to limit religious freedom of immigrants. I could see how this could cause the French to be targeted by religious fanatics.
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  #69  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:10 PM
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I agree with this, and also with Tal.

The location of the police officer who was shot as he lay on the sidewalk was less than half a block from our apartment in Paris. I would be walking past that site to go to the Sunday outdoor market up by Place de la Bastille. The paper's offices were a few doors away from a small store we frequented. We have been watching video of our apartment building and familiar streets all day. It is a solidly middle class neighborhood with many children. We used to walk a friend's elementary school son home from school past there. I am just heartsick.

The French have as strong, if not stronger, a dedication to freedom of speech as we Americans. They do not mess around with political correctness very much. They are also at the forefront in the fight against terrorists. However, there is a lot prejudice against Muslims and Jews there, esp. in Paris. There have been laws passed limiting the wearing of certain items of clothing in certain places (mostly schools) and others proposed that would seem to be designed to limit religious freedom of immigrants. I could see how this could cause the French to be targeted by religious fanatics.
As someone who has lived there, can you speak to the ZONES established there ? That concept is spreading around Europe
  #70  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:31 PM
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As someone who has lived there, can you speak to the ZONES established there ? That concept is spreading around Europe
I'm sorry, neither my husband nor I are familiar with the zone concept, at least under that name. Can you explain?
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  #71  
Old 01-07-2015, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by B767drvr View Post
So… "provoking" a certain minority of people by publishing a cartoon or disparaging article on a particular subject is crossing a line? A line resulting in death?

Or… it is not provoking?

IF it is provoking as Tomwed and others suggest, then suspend free speech and stop provoking everyone.

If it's NOT provoking, then treat this as a terrorist attack and get the bad guys.
No--I think the profit making magazine has a right to provoke anyone they want but be prepared to defend yourself. Don't use the local police as your own security team. Hire your own team to protect your employees.
  #72  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:02 PM
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I'm sorry, neither my husband nor I are familiar with the zone concept, at least under that name. Can you explain?
They are called NO GO ZONES. The entire story concerns me because I think, and this is me, that the trend is coming here in a fashion and sort of how it came to these countries.

First,

"PARIS -- Violent crime can happen anywhere and to anyone and for many reasons, but in Muslim-controlled parts of France, it has become especially dangerous to be white.

Surveillance camera video shows white French being beaten up by predominantly Muslim immigrant gangs in the Metro and on the street.

Islamic immigrants consider it their territory and whites enter at their own risk. The French call them "sensitive urban zones" -- no-go zones where the police don't enter or don't enforce the law.

Some call them little Muslim caliphates inside the borders of France.

"And it's like that because these parts of the country are in the hands of drug traffickers, gangs and imams [Islamic leaders]," French commentator Guy Milliere explained.


Native French under Attack in Muslim Areas - World - CBN News - Christian News 24-7 - CBN.com

"The French government has announced a plan to boost policing in 15 of the most crime-ridden parts of France in an effort to reassert state control over the country's so-called "no-go" zones: Muslim-dominated neighborhoods that are largely off limits to non-Muslims."

France Seeks to Reclaim 'No-Go' Zones | EuropeNews

It is not restricted to France either.

This is from Australia...

"The federal government’s intention to make it a crime for Australians to travel to “no-go zones” appears to be unprecedented among western democracies, according to terrorism experts, with countries such as Britain, Canada and France choosing not to go that far.

In the UK, the prime minister, David Cameron, recently unveiled a package of new anti-terrorism measures to counter the threat of British citizens fighting with Islamic State (Isis) and returning home to potentially plan domestic attacks."


No-go travel zones unprecedented among western democracies | Australia news | The Guardian

These zones also exist in Belguim, Sweden and a number of other countries, including the UK. Similar to those that existed in Rhodesia, South Africa and Northen Ireland

I really have a fear because in our country, that is the way we seem to be going.

I am a big believer in LAW...ONE LAW...not two or three. As I said in my earlier post, I have seen this in Tampa, obviously to a smaller scale, and the recent protests AGAINST police presences in certain areas just raised my antennae !

Also because of your background, you may "enjoy" this video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIy8snQrpYU
  #73  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomwed View Post
No--I think the profit making magazine has a right to provoke anyone they want but be prepared to defend yourself. Don't use the local police as your own security team. Hire your own team to protect your employees.
Why would a profit making magazine have to pay to defend itself ...moreso than a government magazine or a nonprofit???

It is a national freedom the police would be protecting. In our case the first amendment to the constitution. There are all kinds of foolishness that the..... is it ACLU....says it is protecting. Even that ugly church that carries horrible signs at veteran's funerals are allowed to do it, even if they have a space limit. Even when it is abused, most nations recognize the right of freedom of expression.

I often think that all this concentrating on being politically correct in speech is itself a limiting of free speech or free expression as the French call it.

A man might as well be dead if he cannot say what he thinks. Even if I am too cowardly most of the time. This forum has changed me.
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  #74  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tomwed View Post
No--I think the profit making magazine has a right to provoke anyone they want but be prepared to defend yourself. Don't use the local police as your own security team. Hire your own team to protect your employees.
That is sort of like saying the protestors in Ferguson has a right to burn down their town but do not rely on the police to help !!!

Police are there to defend us against those who break the law. That is their job. Yes, security teams and they had them, unarmed as they seem to have been, but the police do get involved at some point as in this country !
  #75  
Old 01-07-2015, 09:22 PM
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Hard for me to comprehend the tone of some responses on this thread. Words to the effect that the magazine publishers should have known that Muslims are extremely "sensitive" people and easily offended by comments or expressions in regard to their religion or it's prophet. Thus they should have expected some type of retaliation to their intentional provocations.
I can remember recent discussions on this site on the topic of the Big Bang Theory. Certain religious types attempted to define the role of our Judeo-Christian God in the creation of the universe. And certain atheists or agnostics implied that the religious types were either ignorant, or unsophisticated, or superstitious, or stuck in the dark ages, or just plain stupid.
Should these non-believers rightfully expect that someday their homes will be invaded and they will be shot to death, or blown to pieces, because they offended the sensibilities of the religious folk???
This is not how things work in America. And should not work that way anywhere on the world. Tolerance has it's limitations.
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