[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Sounds accurate to me as well. This tragedy reminds me of the Leopold and Loeb murder. Leopold and Loeb Trial Home Page But in that 1924 case the murderers were extremely privileged young men trying to commit the perfect crime. Sociopaths with a mission and not bored sociopaths with nothing better to do. Still they all seem to be sociopaths. Not sure if education, sports programs, etc. would have stopped any of these killers.

Absolutely correct and it's takes more than the victim and perpetrator being of different races before it is a racist hate crime.

[Monkei]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

As sad as your statement is, it's true.

welfare pays more than minimum wage in 35 states. Want people to go back to work, raise the minimum wage.

All the top benefit takers live in red states except for Maine.

[Monkei]

Originally Posted by Bucco

I wish it were a new trend, but it is not and your concern about the media is well founded.

This death and the motivation behind it deserves as much scrutiny as other cases but this death will not get it. It will be a minor story for a day or so and then go away. Do not be swayed by outrage because mostly it is politically motivated.

This deserves as much discussion as recent big news killings but it will not even touch it...no political gain to be had.

they were arrested and immediately charged for the crime, they will stand trial and hopefully get a fair trial. That is all people want in this country. Rich kids should not be excused, white should not get off easier ... it's a simple fair and easy way to shose equality.

[JP]

I think SuziQ is right. That white kid is effectively/socially black and consequently I think this was a hate crime.

[skyc6]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I don't know either. I am trying to point out that as normal, FOX jumps out first with statements to make white people lock their doors in fear. One of the three was WHITE. If you condemn every person that has made a racist statement you will have very few of any race innocent. When I watched FOX report on this, they made it sound like a racist assassination. MSNBC reported it as a senseless violent crime and that is what I find correct.

Clearly you do not know that mixed race kids who are part black almost always identify with the black race, especially where poverty is another factor.
They will tell you that if they are 1/4 black, they are black.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by Monkei

welfare pays more than minimum wage in 35 states. Want people to go back to work, raise the minimum wage.

All the top benefit takers live in red states except for Maine.

Yeah. Reward and pay more to people who have no work ethic, have proven they do not care to show up on time IF they show up at all, and were content sitting at home idle and smokin' dope or boozin' or both.

[twinklesweep]

I'm sorry I was less than clear in my earlier post. When I described the perps as "children," I meant strictly age-wise in that they have not reached adult age; fortunately they are being tried as adults.

And when the poster said they would simply go out and buy another gun, to me that sounded like they could simply go out and buy another gun; nothing was mentioned about legality.

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

One of the men was half African American, one was African American and one was white. MSNBC claims this was a violent crime. FOX claims it was a racially motivated crime.

If this is accurate, then MSNBC was correct and FOX was wrong. You can prove the black kid tweeting from now till the cows come home about hating and wanting to kill whites, and there may be no doubt that these are his true feelings, but I don't believe that had anything to do with this savage murder. The victim was in the wrong place at the wrong time; he could have been of any race and the timing was opportune.

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I don't care if they were bright green. These kids are evil.

Without a doubt they are evil--but that still doesn't make this a "hate crime" in the sense of racism. Remember, these sociopathic perpetrators were "bored" and "decided to kill somebody"; there was no mention that the "somebody" had to be white but rather just had to be opportunistic.

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I don't know either. I am trying to point out that as normal, FOX jumps out first with statements to make white people lock their doors in fear. One of the three was WHITE. If you condemn every person that has made a racist statement you will have very few of any race innocent. When I watched FOX report on this, they made it sound like a racist assassination. MSNBC reported it as a senseless violent crime and that is what I find correct.

When a media source immediately makes a terrible event like this racial when it was actually violent, it's not only incredibly counterproductive but it also creates divisiveness, with one result being the fear it inspires. But as "they" say (and I agree): it "sells papers"....

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

Good point. My opinion, many children would be better off in an orphanage than being in the possession of their birth mothers.

This is true, but it's worth remembering, before we begin wailing that the world is going to h*** in a handbasket, that this is nothing new!

There has been virtually no reference in this lengthy thread to the reaction in Australia. This is part of the story at the link that follows:

Call for U.S. tourism boycott

The case has triggered fury among many people in Australia.

"It is another example of murder mayhem on Main Street," former Australian Deputy Prime Minister Tim Fischer told CNN's Piers Morgan.

A chart in the Washington Post, using data from The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, shows Australia to have among the lowest gun-related killings in the developed world. The United States had the highest. Former Prime Minister John Howard told CNN's Christiane Amanpour in March that gun control laws instituted after a mass shooting were responsible for the low number.

(Suspect in Australian baseball player's death posed with guns - CNN.com)

I cannot even begin to address the chauvinistic attitude I've already heard expressed along the lines of (and I'm being polite...) "Who's Australia anyway, and who are they to dictate about our tourism industry?" What I do know is that (1) boycotts can be effective, in fact, very effective; and even though our economy has gratefully improved recently, (2) who will be the losers to whatever extent such a boycott happens. On some levels that do count, this murder is, among other things, an "international incident."

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by twinklesweep

I'm sorry I was less than clear in my earlier post. When I described the perps as "children," I meant strictly age-wise in that they have not reached adult age; fortunately they are being tried as adults.

And when the poster said they would simply go out and buy another gun, to me that sounded like they could simply go out and buy another gun; nothing was mentioned about legality.



If this is accurate, then MSNBC was correct and FOX was wrong. You can prove the black kid tweeting from now till the cows come home about hating and wanting to kill whites, and there may be no doubt that these are his true feelings, but I don't believe that had anything to do with this savage murder. The victim was in the wrong place at the wrong time; he could have been of any race and the timing was opportune.



Without a doubt they are evil--but that still doesn't make this a "hate crime" in the sense of racism. Remember, these sociopathic perpetrators were "bored" and "decided to kill somebody"; there was no mention that the "somebody" had to be white but rather just had to be opportunistic.



When a media source immediately makes a terrible event like this racial when it was actually violent, it's not only incredibly counterproductive but it also creates divisiveness, with one result being the fear it inspires. But as "they" say (and I agree): it "sells papers"....



This is true, but it's worth remembering, before we begin wailing that the world is going to h*** in a handbasket, that this is nothing new!

There has been virtually no reference in this lengthy thread to the reaction in Australia. This is part of the story at the link that follows:

Call for U.S. tourism boycott

The case has triggered fury among many people in Australia.

"It is another example of murder mayhem on Main Street," former Australian Deputy Prime Minister Tim Fischer told CNN's Piers Morgan.

A chart in the Washington Post, using data from The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, shows Australia to have among the lowest gun-related killings in the developed world. The United States had the highest. Former Prime Minister John Howard told CNN's Christiane Amanpour in March that gun control laws instituted after a mass shooting were responsible for the low number.

(Suspect in Australian baseball player's death posed with guns - CNN.com)

I cannot even begin to address the chauvinistic attitude I've already heard expressed along the lines of (and I'm being polite...) "Who's Australia anyway, and who are they to dictate about our tourism industry?" What I do know is that (1) boycotts can be effective, in fact, very effective; and even though our economy has gratefully improved recently, (2) who will be the losers to whatever extent such a boycott happens. On some levels that do count, this murder is, among other things, an "international incident."

The DA assigned to this case agrees with us also. The crime was Hateful, but not a racially motivated crime. I am waiting for the networks to correct their prejudgment but doubt it will come. Judge not my Christian brothers and sisters. Making false charges can result in criminals getting away free and that would be horible in this case.

[twinklesweep]

OFFICERS IN BRONX FIRE 41 SHOTS, AND AN UNARMED MAN IS KILLED

An unarmed [black] West African immigrant with no criminal record was killed early yesterday by four [white plain-clothes] New York City police officers who fired 41 shots at him[19 of which hit him, including some which were found to have traveled up his pants leg, meaning he was clearly down while the shooting continued] in the doorway of his Bronx apartment building, the police said.

It was unclear yesterday why the police officers had opened fire on the man at 12:44 A.M. in the vestibule of his building at 1157 Wheeler Avenue in the Soundview section. The man, Amadou Diallo, 22, who came to America more than two years ago from Guinea and worked as a street peddler in Manhattan, died at the scene, the police said.

The Bronx District Attorney's office is investigating the shooting, whose details were still murky last night because there were apparently no civilian witnesses and none of the police officers involved had given statements to investigators. But Inspector Michael Collins, a police spokesman, said that investigators who went to the scene of the shooting did not find a weapon on or near Mr. Diallo....

Officers in Bronx Fire 41 Shots, And an Unarmed Man Is Killed - New York Times[/B]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Emphasis and addition of words and phrases in the news story are mine.] The response to this shooting on the part of many was jaw dropping and head shaking. How could four big, white plain-clothes police officers fire 41 bullets at a small, slightly built, unarmed African immigrant as he stood in the entranceway of his own home with his wallet in his hand? And the results of the trial of the four officers?

THE DIALLO VERDICT: THE OVERVIEW; 4 OFFICERS IN DIALLO SHOOTING ARE ACQUITTED OF ALL CHARGES

Four New York City police officers were acquitted today of all charges in the death of Amadou Diallo, the immigrant from Guinea who was fired on 41 times as he stood, unarmed, in the vestibule of his apartment building in the Bronx.

The verdict came in a tense and racially charged case that led to anti-police demonstrations, arrests and a reorganization of the department's Street Crime Unit, to which the officers belonged.

But litigation over the shooting might not be over. After the verdict, Mary Jo White, the United States attorney in Manhattan, announced that her office, which has been monitoring the case from the start, and the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department would review the shooting to determine whether any civil rights laws were violated. And Mr. Diallo's parents plan to file a civil lawsuit against the city. The officers could also face administrative charges within the department.

The shooting occurred about 12:40 a.m. on Feb. 4, 1999, when the four officers, all in street clothes, approached Mr. Diallo on the stoop of his building and fired 41 shots, striking him 19 times, as he retreated inside. The officers, who are white, said they had thought he had a gun. It turned out to be a wallet....

THE DIALLO VERDICT: THE OVERVIEW; 4 OFFICERS IN DIALLO SHOOTING ARE ACQUITTED OF ALL CHARGES - New York Times

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In other words, this killing of Amadou Diallo by four police officers was not only NOT considered a "hate crime" insofar as racism was concerned, the verdict also shows that it was not even considered a "crime"! And the trial for this "non-crime"? Here is a portion of the article from Time Magazine:

AT DIALLO TRIAL, JUSTICE IS WEIGHED IN DIFFERENT MEASURES

It's become something of a bitter, rhetorical joke: Where would you rather be, as a black man encountering the police — New York City or Los Angeles?

While discussions of race have been aggressively squelched in the courtroom, the troubled legacies of Rodney King and Abner Louima haunt the trial of four white New York City police officers accused of murdering African trinket salesman Amadou Diallo. The police say they mistook Diallo's black wallet, which he apparently proffered in an outstretched hand, for a gun, and believing their lives were in danger, the police fired their weapons 41 times.

The February 1999 shooting sparked heated, celebrity-studded protests and calls for the resignation of New York police commissioner Howard Safir. Get-tough anti-crime methods were under fire and under the microscope; years of mounting tension between cops and minorities came to a head after Diallo's killing — and loud factions demanded action and answers.

Nearly a year after the shooting, unease surrounding the case had barely abated, and the decision was made to move the trial upstate in an attempt to escape the blinding spotlight of New York City's criminal courts. So the press corps and New York City court officers moved to the state capital, Albany, filling area hotels — and imagining themselves facing another O.J.-length trial....

At Diallo Trial, Justice Is Weighed in Different Measures - TIME

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We can judge for ourselves without being a part of the proceedings, though our judgments are meaningless in relation to what actually takes place in the courtroom. And the jury spoke: What would have appeared to have been a "hate crime" by today's standards was considered not to have been a crime at all!

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by twinklesweep

I'm sorry I was less than clear in my earlier post. When I described the perps as "children," I meant strictly age-wise in that they have not reached adult age; fortunately they are being tried as adults.

And when the poster said they would simply go out and buy another gun, to me that sounded like they could simply go out and buy another gun; nothing was mentioned about legality.



If this is accurate, then MSNBC was correct and FOX was wrong. You can prove the black kid tweeting from now till the cows come home about hating and wanting to kill whites, and there may be no doubt that these are his true feelings, but I don't believe that had anything to do with this savage murder. The victim was in the wrong place at the wrong time; he could have been of any race and the timing was opportune.



Without a doubt they are evil--but that still doesn't make this a "hate crime" in the sense of racism. Remember, these sociopathic perpetrators were "bored" and "decided to kill somebody"; there was no mention that the "somebody" had to be white but rather just had to be opportunistic.



When a media source immediately makes a terrible event like this racial when it was actually violent, it's not only incredibly counterproductive but it also creates divisiveness, with one result being the fear it inspires. But as "they" say (and I agree): it "sells papers"....



This is true, but it's worth remembering, before we begin wailing that the world is going to h*** in a handbasket, that this is nothing new!

There has been virtually no reference in this lengthy thread to the reaction in Australia. This is part of the story at the link that follows:

Call for U.S. tourism boycott

The case has triggered fury among many people in Australia.

"It is another example of murder mayhem on Main Street," former Australian Deputy Prime Minister Tim Fischer told CNN's Piers Morgan.

A chart in the Washington Post, using data from The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, shows Australia to have among the lowest gun-related killings in the developed world. The United States had the highest. Former Prime Minister John Howard told CNN's Christiane Amanpour in March that gun control laws instituted after a mass shooting were responsible for the low number.

(Suspect in Australian baseball player's death posed with guns - CNN.com)

I cannot even begin to address the chauvinistic attitude I've already heard expressed along the lines of (and I'm being polite...) "Who's Australia anyway, and who are they to dictate about our tourism industry?" What I do know is that (1) boycotts can be effective, in fact, very effective; and even though our economy has gratefully improved recently, (2) who will be the losers to whatever extent such a boycott happens. On some levels that do count, this murder is, among other things, an "international incident."

I have read and reread this post and fail to see the point trying to be made about Australia and about guns being easy to obtain for anyone.

In the past six months I have begun to change my mind about owning a gun. Our home never saw the need for one, but when the bad guys are armed...well...still thinking about that.

I always think of Australia as having some super great ideas. You can't move there unless you have a job or a purpose such as being a student.
I think of them as allies in every sense, English speaking, independent, not much violence and crime, doing better than our country.

This crime hurts my heart on all levels. I want the entire black race to be successful so that the folks who are black and successful no longer have to be ashamed of so many who are frankly failures in every sense.

Those are harsh words. That is gathering people in a bunch and criticizing them. I wish I knew the answer to stop the cycle of fatherless families living on welfare. Necessity is often the mother of invention. People need to FEEL important and have self worth. Living on the dole is not a respected life. Many young black males decide to be entrepreneurs in the lucrative drug business and we see them die, day after day as they kill each other for unpaid bills or for turf.

If we could stem the drugs from getting into this country, and control the prescription drug business, and gradually pull away the financial support of able bodied and able minded people, it might be a step toward helping down and out blacks AND whites with pride and independence that every human is born with.

I don't know. But slinging hatred back and forth, even among us here on this forum is NOT the answer.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I have read and reread this post and fail to see the point trying to be made about Australia and about guns being easy to obtain for anyone.

In the past six months I have begun to change my mind about owning a gun. Our home never saw the need for one, but when the bad guys are armed...well...still thinking about that.

I always think of Australia as having some super great ideas. You can't move there unless you have a job or a purpose such as being a student.
I think of them as allies in every sense, English speaking, independent, not much violence and crime, doing better than our country.

This crime hurts my heart on all levels. I want the entire black race to be successful so that the folks who are black and successful no longer have to be ashamed of so many who are frankly failures in every sense.

Those are harsh words. That is gathering people in a bunch and criticizing them. I wish I knew the answer to stop the cycle of fatherless families living on welfare. Necessity is often the mother of invention. People need to FEEL important and have self worth. Living on the dole is not a respected life. Many young black males decide to be entrepreneurs in the lucrative drug business and we see them die, day after day as they kill each other for unpaid bills or for turf.

If we could stem the drugs from getting into this country, and control the prescription drug business, and gradually pull away the financial support of able bodied and able minded people, it might be a step toward helping down and out blacks AND whites with pride and independence that every human is born with.

I don't know. But slinging hatred back and forth, even among us here on this forum is NOT the answer.

I think you are missing the intent and message in twinkle,s post. I see sense being made above the others posting on this thread. Twinkle takes prejudice and politics out of the information making the thread more clear to me.
The post you reference is based on fact rather than personal feelings. I hope you still love me Gracie. Hugs to you.

[Bucco]

I think the only reason this is even a thread on here is the ongoing, over one year long coverage of the Zimmerman case. The marches, the dedication of a complete network for a time to it, the rhetoric which was shrill and caustic, the intervention twice by the POTUS, and on and on was simply the groundwork for a reaction like this.

This crime is horrible, but not unique, save the Australian homeland of the victime. It happens over and over, but was brought to the forefront because of the Zimmerman fiasco and subsequent events.

Until we can talk about race without worrying about being politically correct, and weighing how we can gain something from it, the problem goes on.

THERE IS A PROBLEM......face it head on. Forget saying what the other guy did...forget worrying about having feelings hurt...forget calling anyone who wants to talk about it without a political gain a racist. Until then....there will be no solution to any of this.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I think you are missing the intent and message in twinkle,s post. I see sense being made above the others posting on this thread. Twinkle takes prejudice and politics out of the information making the thread more clear to me.
The post you reference is based on fact rather than personal feelings. I hope you still love me Gracie. Hugs to you.

I will read it again Lou. Need coffee. Had bad dreams from going back to bed and falling asleep again.

We need to read each post and not prejudge any posters intent. I don't do that sometimes.

Sometimes I get impatient when political correctness does not allow us to really talk about issues. I know this latest shooting of a young college student who is white by some black kids and the beating to death of an old man who was innocent of any reason for it makes so many black people cringe again. Maybe they don't know that many whites do understand and wish that we could help. I think that Martin Luther's dream has come a long way in fifty years but herculean efforts still need to be made by all of us. ALL of us.

Off the subject.(or is it?) Now I will read Twinklesweep's post again.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

I will read it again Lou. Need coffee. Had bad dreams from going back to bed and falling asleep again.

We need to read each post and not prejudge any posters intent. I don't do that sometimes.

Sometimes I get impatient when political correctness does not allow us to really talk about issues. I know this latest shooting of a young college student who is white by some black kids and the beating to death of an old man who was innocent of any reason for it makes so many black people cringe again. Maybe they don't know that many whites do understand and wish that we could help. I think that Martin Luther's dream has come a long way in fifty years but herculean efforts still need to be made by all of us. ALL of us.

Off the subject.(or is it?) Now I will read Twinklesweep's post again.

I am constantly jumped on for being way off base when I post with what I intend to be an agreement with the OP. go figure..... I have one that I must refrain from responding to recently for this very reason. I misunderstand his posts and he mine. In that case, it is more respectful not to respond at all. So, in short, we don't all think alike.

[blueash]

I think this thread has gone far enough into race when posters are claiming the only reason a white kid is involved is that he's been made a white hating pseudo-black killer by being exposed to black people.

I present to you Konrad Schafer, a baby faced 15 year old white teen who sits in jail right now in central Florida for murder for the shooting of a man waiting at a bus stop. And why did Konrad, a white teen with a father kill? According to the police his reason was

Konrad Schafer said he killed because it would be "fun and cool," according to police.'

Even more, Schafer is involved in a second murder and multiple random shootings while joyriding. And how did he get his .45 weapon?

His father has now also been charged. Dad had Konrad go gun shopping to get a weapon because :

Father said he bought the boy the weapon - as well as hundreds of rounds of ammunition - because Konrad was 'having problems with unidentified subjects in Poinciana, Florida,' according to an arrest affidavit


Now I mention this local case which is freshly in the news in an attempt to demonstrate that killing for fun is not race based and there are so many errors of logic and reasoning in any attempt to twist the Oklahoma story into a race story.