[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Most mentally ill people are the victims of violence and not those that carry it out. Do some research.

And look at the practices at some of those institutions. Many of these people had no clue about how to treat people. And there are still problems. There's a Psychiatrist Crisis in America That Few Are Talking About

We’re talking apples and oranges, Tal. I’ve done a lot of research and, of course, not every person with mental illness will be violent in this manor. In fact, it is the minority that will project violence in this fashion.

I agree that SOME of the mentally ill have been victims of violence and many because the safety net was removed. The institutions were shuttered because lack of interest in cleaning up the management and money that politicians were saving for their own interests.

This doesn’t change the fact that mental illness is the leading factors in these murders and they will continue to wreak this sad havoc if the public is unwilling to advocate for change in dealing with those individuals.

Trust me when I say they will find even more heinous methods than automatic weapons.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Aces4

Why the devil is it necessary to unarm US citizens who day in and day out uphold the law, act responsibly and store their weapons accordingly?

Why do people keep spreading this line? Is it to spread fear? As far as I know no one in any position to do anything has ever suggested disarming America.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Why do people keep spreading this line? Is it to spread fear? As far as I know no one in any position to do anything has ever suggested disarming America.

If you are removing guns, you are disarming, that simple. I still haven’t seen an answer as to why automobiles and airplanes shouldn’t be banned since this is the first knee jerk reaction to the risk association.

I think the real line here is the solution is simple, remove all guns with the exception of pistols and shotguns. Bill from the UK has provided some powerful insight here. Those intent on doing harm will find a way whether or not there are guns.

[Northwoods]

In the Dayton Ohio shooting, the gunman was killed in LESS THAN one minute after he started shooting. In less than a minute 9 people were killed and 27 people were injured. He used an assault-style rifle with high capacity magazines. He bought the gun legally. I can't imagine a reason why citizens are able to legally buy this type of weapon.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

Yes it would. And going after the culture that encourages ownership of rifles that are made for the battlefield is something that needs to be done. They have been altered a little to be able to be sold to civilians but are still basically military rifles.

And these military weapons would probably tear apart game animals so I do not see much use of them for hunting. Home protection, maybe. But weapons long available to the general public would be just as useful for home defense.

Every type of gun has been used by the military at one time or another and for the most part are currently owned by civilians. The Revolutionary army used flintlocks and so did civilians. The Civil War saw the use of cap lock muzzle loading rifles and near the end of the war lever action rifles were being used by the Union Army. The lever action is still a very popular rifle used by hunters and recreational shooters. WWI saw the use of the bolt action rifle that is used by hunters and target shooters. WWII introduced the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine which are semi-automatic rifles that are in great demand today by civilian shooters. The M16/M4 rifle is for the most part not available for civilians due to it being a full automatic rifle.
The round the AR15, M16/M4 shoots is the 5.56 X45 aka .223 in commercial ammo caliber designation. It does not tear up game animals. The .223/5.56 in most states is not allowed to be used on large game (deer, antelope, elk, etc.) not because it is so powerful, but because it isn't powerful enough.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Aces4

We’re talking apples and oranges, Tal. I’ve done a lot of research and, of course, not every person with mental illness will be violent in this manor. In fact, it is the minority that will project violence in this fashion.

I agree that SOME of the mentally ill have been victims of violence and many because the safety net was removed. The institutions were shuttered because lack of interest in cleaning up the management and money that politicians were saving for their own interests.

This doesn’t change the fact that mental illness is the leading factors in these murders and they will continue to wreak this sad havoc if the public is unwilling to advocate for change in dealing with those individuals.

Trust me when I say they will find even more heinous methods than automatic weapons.

They have. Trucks. Like in Paris.

But police and others can plan for these kind of actions. And these murderers are usually driven by hate not mental illness. Hate propagated usually for the benefit of someone using it as a tool. And these players could not care less about the people they use.

I had a friend in library school in 1983-1984 who was from the U of Mosul Library in Iraq. Nice man and not mentally ill in any way. But as soon as he returned to Iraq from Denver and got into the propaganda surrounding the 1980 Iran-Iraq war he was angrier and angrier at anything about the West. I had stop writing him as a pen pal because his letters had so much hatred in them.

They destroyed the U of Mosul library around 2014. ISIS. Fanatics driven by hatred. Some probably are mentally ill too from what they have seen and done in those many wars in Iraq.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Every type of gun has been used by the military at one time or another and for the most part are currently owned by civilians. The Revolutionary army used flintlocks and so did civilians. The Civil War saw the use of cap lock muzzle loading rifles and near the end of the war lever action rifles were being used by the Union Army. The lever action is still a very popular rifle used by hunters and recreational shooters. WWI saw the use of the bolt action rifle that is used by hunters and target shooters. WWII introduced the M1 Garand and the M1 Carbine which are semi-automatic rifles that are in great demand today by civilian shooters. The M16/M4 rifle is for the most part not available for civilians due to it being a full automatic rifle.
The round the AR15, M16/M4 shoots is the 5.56 X45 aka .223 in commercial ammo caliber designation. It does not tear up game animals. The .223/5.56 in most states is not allowed to be used on large game (deer, antelope, elk, etc.) not because it is so powerful, but because it isn't powerful enough.

What is it with guns?

Why do people love these so much?

You only need a gun for home protection and maybe some for hunting.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

They have. Trucks. Like in Paris.

But police and others can plan for these kind of actions. And these murderers are usually driven by hate not mental illness. Hate propagated usually for the benefit of someone using it as a tool.

I had a friend in library school in 1983-1984 who was from the U of Mosul Library in Iraq. Nice man and not mentally ill in any way. But as soon as he returned to Iraq from Denver and got into the propaganda surrounding the 1980 Iran-Iraq war he was angrier and angrier at anything about the West. I had stop writing him as a pen pal because his letters had so much hatred in them.

They destroyed the U of Mosul library around 2014. ISIS. Fanatics driven by hatred. Some probably are mentally ill too from what they have seen and done in those many wars in Iraq.

And you think hate of that magnitude isn’t mental illness?

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Northwoods

In the Dayton Ohio shooting, the gunman was killed in LESS THAN one minute after he started shooting. In less than a minute 9 people were killed and 27 people were injured. He used an assault-style rifle with high capacity magazines. He bought the gun legally. I can't imagine a reason why citizens are able to legally buy this type of weapon.

Me neither. What is the purpose of such a weapon? To kill people very quickly is all I can think of.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Aces4

If you are removing guns, you are disarming, that simple. I still haven’t seen an answer as to why automobiles and airplanes shouldn’t be banned since this is the first knee jerk reaction to the risk association.

I think the real line here is the solution is simple, remove all guns with the exception of pistols and shotguns. Bill from the UK has provided some powerful insight here. Those intent on doing harm will find a way whether or not there are guns.

So, you are in favor of mentally ill people with a desire to kill as many people as possible to buy and own guns??

Conflating "disarming Americans" with regulating who can own guns is a bit of a scare tactic from my point of view.

During the previous administration it was believed that guns sales were going to be seriously reduced, resulting in massive increases in people buying guns and ammunitions. Now that the previous administration is over, the numbers have been added up and in fact just the opposite occurred, and more guns were sold during it that under any other in history.

Again, conflating regulation with disarming is not helping the conversation or helping to solve the problem.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Aces4

And you don’t think hate of that magnitude isn’t mental illness?

No it is not. Unless you want to say the whole world went crazy in WWI and WWII.

Post traumatic stress syndrome is a mental illness. I have met many people suffering from it. And many of the victims/survivors of these El Paso and Dayton shootings will now have it.

My former Villages' neighbor's son suffers from it because of the murder of his niece in the Parkland shooting. He is so scared by these recent shootings he does not want to leave his house.

[Lottoguy]

You know your argument on guns is no good when you compare cars killing people to guns killing people. Laughable!

[Lottoguy]

I think being able to buy a 100 round magazine lawfully is more the reason then church's not being filled.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Lottoguy

You know your argument on guns is no good when you compare cars killing people to guns killing people. Laughable!

It is laughable that we cannot do something about men full of hatred who use assault style weapons to terrorize their fellow Americans.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Taltarzac725

No it is not. Unless you want to say the whole world went crazy in WWI and WWII.

Post traumatic stress syndrome is a mental illness. I have met many people suffering from it. And many of the victims/survivors of these El Paso and Dayton shootings will now have it.

Hilter was the delusional, mentally unstable person with the guns. Thank heavens the rest of the world had weapons to hold him at bay and I don’t know how defending one’s country would ever be equated with “crazy”.

And that is the point with PTSD, when normal, healthy people are put in the stressful position of shooting others they suffer mental breakdowns because killing other humans isn’t normal for them.