[anothersteve]

[QUOTE=Jazuela;166996

Until they take ownership for their responsibility in the mess was have now, where one state can have strict laws that are bypassed simply by going across state lines, no amount of OTHER changes will make a single bit of difference.
..[/QUOTE]

Do you even read the links posted?
Steve

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Jazuela

Background checks are NOT required by federal law for private sales, and Texas has no restrictions requiring them either. ANYONE can get a gun in Texas, legally, without a background check. You're not required to go through a licensed dealer to get a gun. At least, not in Texas, where the El Paso shooting happened.

If you watch Live P.D. you can quickly see that ANYONE can get a gun illegally. AND ANYONE can get illegal drugs. And people do not seem to be learning what is right and wrong anymore. Perhaps because someone who is not their parents are raising them from infancy. You cannot legislate morality. You cannot teach morality to a sick mind. Morality can be taught by a person bonded to a child up to the age of five. After that, it is probably not going to take.

Some people think it is wrong to teach children rules attached to religion.

I don't own a gun. I don't drink or take illegal drugs. I still get angry enough to bite or hit or harm from time to time but there is a shadowy figure in the back of my mind that won't allow it. The figure looks a lot like my mom.

[manaboutown]

Unfortunately shootings are now all too common worldwide, even in gun controlled countries. Sweden: Local Residents Tense After Shootings in Karlstad
Three men killed in gang-related shooting in southern Sweden - Reuters

This just happened in Chicago so it is not really news, just another day in the Windy City. Reports: 7 People Shot, Injured Near Chicago Playground

[chrisinva]

To all the writers so far - Thanks for this reasonable, rational, 7 pages so far, discussion of this horrible topic. As I read page after page, I was fearing the moderator would need to end the discussion but there was no need for that.

The back & forth comments, your reasonableness, the links for validation, your unique interpretations of law, ability to keep away from politics, and ability to stay on topic have made my Sunday morning reading very worthwhile. Again, thanks for this discussion.

What I learned & believe - laws alone cannot be the solution since the problem extends beyond the laws. The solution is a mix of law and somewhere in the moral/spiritual/mental health matrix.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

If you watch Live P.D. you can quickly see that ANYONE can get a gun illegally. AND ANYONE can get illegal drugs. And people do not seem to be learning what is right and wrong anymore. Perhaps because someone who is not their parents are raising them from infancy. You cannot legislate morality. You cannot teach morality to a sick mind. Morality can be taught by a person bonded to a child up to the age of five. After that, it is probably not going to take.

Some people think it is wrong to teach children rules attached to religion.

I don't own a gun. I don't drink or take illegal drugs. I still get angry enough to bite or hit or harm from time to time but there is a shadowy figure in the back of my mind that won't allow it. The figure looks a lot like my mom.

Truth, you can not legislate morality, and both parties need to learn that.

The only thing I would change in your comment is "Some people think it is wrong to teach kids rules". Period.

I don't own a "gun" (I have a air rifle for vermin control), I drink may 1 or 2 small glasses a wine per month, I don't take illegal drugs - I don't feel free room and board for the rest of my life courtesy of the state worth the brief high.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by chrisinva

What I learned & believe - laws alone cannot be the solution since the problem extends beyond the laws. The solution is a mix of law and somewhere in the moral/spiritual/mental health matrix.

I believe laws do not solve problems at all, people speed, people run stop signs, people use drugs, people kill people...

I don't know what the solution is, but penalties (laws) do not deter crime the simply punish it.

[Number 10 GI]

Originally Posted by Jazuela

I'm not suggesting that we "eliminate" a tool to commit violence. I'm saying provide better checks and balances, and accountability for both the buyer and the seller, and make it a NATIONAL regulation, not a state-wide regulation. There is nothing preventing someone from going to any state that allows them to legally buy a gun, and legally buying one. And then, once that person has possession of that gun, bringing it back to their state, where state regulations prohibit them from buying it (because licensing, conceal carry, mental illness checks not done, no testing, whatever. WHATEVER REASON.)

If it is illegal for them to get it in the next state also, then it will be more difficult for them to get a gun. They'll still be able to get one. But it'll be harder to do. AND - just the fact that they got one at all, in ANY state, would mean they violated the law.

In some states, the regulations and restrictions are stricter than in other states. There is no consistency. That is WHY Chicago has the problems it has. Chicago is an example of a city that will always have problems. But it is AS BAD as it is, because of the ease of LEGALLY acquiring a firearm across state lines.

The regulations - whatever they are, however strict or loose, need to be nationwide.

And again - "other tools" don't exist for the express purpose of killing. The primary function of a gun is to kill. That is its #1 primary function. It has limited use in anything else other than target practice, which is what you do when you're trying to be good at killing.

Have you heard of the Gun Control Act of 1968. This federal law established a NATIONWIDE set of regulations that regulate the sale, possession, and transportation of firearms for all states and territories.
What do you mean about accountability for buyer and seller? If a gun dealer sells a firearm to a prohibited individual he has broken the law. If a prohibited person obtains a firearm he has committed a felony. News flash, criminals don't obey the law.
States can and do have laws in addition to what the federal government has laid down. As I pointed out in another post Florida has a 3 day waiting period before you can take possession of a firearm after successfully completing a background check.
Do you read my posts? I stated earlier that a person cannot go into another state and purchase a handgun and walk out the door with it. The gun must be transferred to a licensed gun dealer in the purchasers home state where the individual must pass a background check before taking possession of the gun. If the gun is prohibited in the purchasers home state or if the individual cannot legally own the firearm, he/she will not get it from the gun dealer. A private individual cannot sell an out of state resident a handgun. It must be transferred to a licensed dealer in the purchasers home state just as a gun dealer must do. Long guns are treated a bit differently and can be purchased out of state but if the home state of the purchaser prohibits that firearm the out of state dealer cannot sell the rifle to him. Even if an out of state purchaser is able to obtain a rifle that is banned in his home state he is still violating the law for possessing it.
Were cars designed for drunk drivers to operate? How about axes, they were a weapon of war but are also used to cut down trees. Knives were and still are weapons of war in addition to being used in the kitchen. Clubs were definitely used first as weapons but we don't regulate baseball bats do we. The fact that guns were originally designed as weapons mean nothing. My point which you don't seem to accept is that nearly any item can be used as a weapon to injure or kill another person. In the absence of a firearm a determined individual will find another tool to use to commit the crime. Yes there would be fewer gun homicides but there would be more by other means.
I take great offense to your statement and take it as insult that if a person uses a gun in target practice it is only to enable them to be more effective in killing. You don't know me. I have never killed anyone in my life, I've never threatened anyone with a gun either. I have no desire or daydreams of killing someone. I am just as sickened by the senseless killings going on in this country as anyone else. There are millions of gun owners in this country who think just like me about the violence.

[anothersteve]

Originally Posted by Number 10 GI

Have you heard of the Gun Control Act of 1968. This federal law established a NATIONWIDE set of regulations that regulate the sale, possession, and transportation of firearms for all states and territories.
What do you mean about accountability for buyer and seller? If a gun dealer sells a firearm to a prohibited individual he has broken the law. If a prohibited person obtains a firearm he has committed a felony. News flash, criminals don't obey the law.
States can and do have laws in addition to what the federal government has laid down. As I pointed out in another post Florida has a 3 day waiting period before you can take possession of a firearm after successfully completing a background check.
Do you read my posts? I stated earlier that a person cannot go into another state and purchase a handgun and walk out the door with it. The gun must be transferred to a licensed gun dealer in the purchasers home state where the individual must pass a background check before taking possession of the gun. If the gun is prohibited in the purchasers home state or if the individual cannot legally own the firearm, he/she will not get it from the gun dealer. A private individual cannot sell an out of state resident a handgun. It must be transferred to a licensed dealer in the purchasers home state just as a gun dealer must do. Long guns are treated a bit differently and can be purchased out of state but if the home state of the purchaser prohibits that firearm the out of state dealer cannot sell the rifle to him. Even if an out of state purchaser is able to obtain a rifle that is banned in his home state he is still violating the law for possessing it.
Were cars designed for drunk drivers to operate? How about axes, they were a weapon of war but are also used to cut down trees. Knives were and still are weapons of war in addition to being used in the kitchen. Clubs were definitely used first as weapons but we don't regulate baseball bats do we. The fact that guns were originally designed as weapons mean nothing. My point which you don't seem to accept is that nearly any item can be used as a weapon to injure or kill another person. In the absence of a firearm a determined individual will find another tool to use to commit the crime. Yes there would be fewer gun homicides but there would be more by other means.
I take great offense to your statement and take it as insult that if a person uses a gun in target practice it is only to enable them to be more effective in killing. You don't know me. I have never killed anyone in my life, I've never threatened anyone with a gun either. I have no desire or daydreams of killing someone. I am just as sickened by the senseless killings going on in this country as anyone else. There are millions of gun owners in this country who think just like me about the violence.

Well said. Thank you. There have been many links posted that obviously have not been read.
Steve

[billethkid]

Much has been said about the ease of buying/getting a gun.

That is not the reason for gun violence here in the USA.

What always seems to be glossed over is that we have allowed our culture to condone/accept violence. As was stated in an earlier post the movies, video games, television and much entertainment is violence based or violence driven.

Once upon a time there were ratings that some of us used to manage what our kids watched on tv or at the movies. In our house if it was R rated....no if and or buts the kids did not get to see it. Nor was anybody else allowed to watch it while under age children in the room.

Today kids grow up with a game boy or game video or television as their baby sitter. These kids get a steady diet of violence in all shapes and forms....day after day and year after year. The emotional response to murder, maiming and mayhem has become non existent.

Add to that our increasing tolerance for wrong doing and selective law enforcement all provide a breeding culture for violence and wrong doing.

The statistics are higher for mortality on using cell phones while driving. Yet there is no clamoring of the masses to ELIMINATE or control the problem. Why do we hear about MADD but nothing about mothers against cell phones? Why? Because the majority have them and they will not allow or create and disturbance to their addiction. Hence the death by auto-cell phone continues.

Non gun deaths i.e. cell phones....note the silence.
Gun deaths? Note the lack of addressing the real issue.

How many gun owners and or guns owned in the USA used every single day without incident. Millions upon millions. What gets the press and political agenda attention? Not the 99.8% responsible gun ownership and use!!!!!!!

Re-iterating my position once again.

It ain't the gun!!!!

[Kenswing]

One thing that really hasn't been mentioned is Social Media. There has been a definite increase in mass shootings since the advent of Social Media.

The news media presents almost nothing but divisive issues anymore. "If it bleeds it leads".. Amazing how this country is split almost down the middle on social issues.

Then add in forums like this. Well maybe not exactly like this since this forum is multifaceted with the discussion of many issues. But look at forums that are dedicated to certain topics. Those forums present one side of an issue. You get some impressionable kid and egg him on, instill hate and violence and you have a recipe for disaster. Look how many kids spend their days online. For some it is their only social interaction.

This problem is way bigger than firearms. Bullying, mental health, media input, self biases.. You name it, they can all contribute. But until we find the root cause this will continue to happen.

[skip0358]

Yes agree very well said. It’s not the gun but the nut job behind it. Your 100% correct on your gun laws also. People say the Military style weapons are the problem I could buy a 50 or 100 round drum for a pistol and fire just as many or more rounds then the military style weapons, plant a bomb in my car a mailbox a storm drain etc. I don’t and will not but that’s what could happen. It’s the nut job that does the killing not the device he or she uses. You can’t outlaw any everything that could be used as a weapon impossible. Sorry this happened yet again prayers to family and friends of those involved. Those who carry legally hope to never need it but if they do let’s hope it stops the attacker.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Kenswing

One thing that really hasn't been mentioned is Social Media. There has been a definite increase in mass shootings since the advent of Social Media.

True, this is also associated with the growth of access/use of the internet, not just social media.

The news media presents almost nothing but divisive issues anymore. "If it bleeds it leads".. Amazing how this country is split almost down the middle on social issues.

"Back in the day" News on radio and TV were not profit centers. One day the bean counters figured out they could monetize news and the downward spiral began and it was "news" only if it could be spun to make a buck.

Then add in forums like this. Well maybe not exactly like this since this forum is multifaceted with the discussion of many issues. But look at forums that are dedicated to certain topics. Those forums present one side of an issue. You get some impressionable kid and egg him on, instill hate and violence and you have a recipe for disaster. Look how many kids spend their days online. For some it is their only social interaction.

Kids in general are peer group driven. The bully phenomena pre-dates the internet, and was/is somewhat driven by the praise they get from "peers" for a good "burn". On the internet anyone can be a bully and get away with it since they are anonymous. And the "rewards" are even greater (likes, shares and subscribers).

This problem is way bigger than firearms. Bullying, mental health, media input, self biases.. You name it, they can all contribute. But until we find the root cause this will continue to happen.

Completely agree with you - 100%.

Most suggestions are treating the symptoms and not the problem. Not to say that while we are looking for the cause we should do nothing, but the problem(s) will not go away until we treat the root cause.

I personally think we are in a civilization wide transition period of information overload.

We, as humans are having a hard time adapting to (dealing with) all the changes. The internet is a big one - it is resulting in a zero cost (profitable?) ability to spread hate and anger, it is resulting in too much information, information overload making it hard to know who or what to believe.

There is a theory among people searching for extraterrestrial life (aliens) that while there are many inhabited planets out there most civilizations kill themselves off once they reach the level of technological advancement where they can.

We are at that level now, and it does feel sometimes like we are not going to get through this phase of the "industrial" revolution.

[Taltarzac725]

Originally Posted by Jazuela

Historically, the NRA helped to create sensible gun laws that hadn't previously existed. Now, they are a powerful pro-gun lobby group that wants to eliminate those same laws that they helped to create.

Until they take ownership for their responsibility in the mess was have now, where one state can have strict laws that are bypassed simply by going across state lines, no amount of OTHER changes will make a single bit of difference.

In an emergency situation where someone's leg was shot up and sepsis has begun to climb up the artery, you don't tell the patient to wait while you spend a few days figuring out why he got shot. You address the sepsis immediately and if necessary - remove the leg.

Our country is experiencing sepsis, and you all want to address the cause of the sepsis. That's great. We really SHOULD address the cause of the sepsis. But first, we need to stop the sepsis. That sepsis is semi-automatic weapons, and inconsistent gun laws between the states.

Another analogy: someone driving a car has a heart attack. You don't keep driving while you figure out why he had a heart attack. You pull over and deal with the heart attack. Mass shootings = man driving a car while having a heart attack.

I certainly hear you or read you loud and clear.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Kilmacowen

Another mass shooting at a mall in El Paso. Multiple fatalities reported and injured. When is something going to be done?

What can be done? How can it be done? Asylums? Who will ascertain who is the potentially dangerous criminally insane? A very difficult situation.

Remove guns and weapons from all homes? Do not sell new ones? That means that people with a moral compass will give up their weapons and not buy new ones.

Pass a law about AK47s? Most people would agree with that, but hard liners of the second amendment would not.

We have tried to work hard and save and buy homes in safe parts of the world. Never felt the need to be armed, but that is changing for the older people who do not hit hard, run fast and even get out of chairs quickly.

This is very complex. This is far more than political. Thou shalt not kill, unless someone is trying to badly harm you or your family. My mother said that and I believe it. My mother would not recognize THIS world.

[billethkid]

Better be careful....discussing each other instead of the thread topic will get the thread closed!!