[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by TexaninVA

Sorry ... let me rephrase it.

Are you willing to give up your car Golfingnut?

What about your golf cart?

Absolutely not. I would vote to pay more for renewable energy that does not use oil however.

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I think....... that we do affect the ozone layer. We humans. But I KNOW that getting enough people to act differently is well nigh impossible. The humans aren't going to give up cars fueled by gas and other comforts. Some of us would. Some of us won't.


We can't get people to do things short term to help themselves, like working two jobs and saving money and reusing and repurposing and taking care of what they have. It is the beautiful young and idealistic who will argue with the old and sage. There are things that are right, but not feasible. You cannot change certain elements in certain people. In this case a LOT of people.


It will again be a huge argument that will further polarize people instead of motivating them to do what they can do to improve the air and water. Too many people do NOT care about anything but their own instant gratification. They do not plan or try to save the country's money. They don't realize that is the same principle. Waste not, want not. Necessity is the mother of hard work and the work ethic.


I know these things only because I am old.

Fortunately the arguing is age tatted by only a few. I am sorry to the folks that could have had meaningfull discussion about what cause s global warming, but you can read. That I tried ti get it back on track three times only to be attacked again. See ya on the next START of a thread.

Hi golfingnut: In all due respect you paint with a very wide brush indeed.

I am old too and managed people for many years and I can promise you unless you can make a cogent and factual case you will not get people to follow you. The climate change advocates have been continually caught in so many lies and half truths that they have lost credibility. secondly employees as I remember could always figure out when a manager (VP etc) was pushing a program because they personally gained and that fact dealt them the death blow.

You suggest that people won't give up their comforts as if it was their responsibility. Yet all those who are suppose to be taking the lead have a larger carbon print than many of the people combined that you direct this criticism. Think Al Gore and his residence

You reference the lack of people being willing to work two jobs, etc. I agree. Growing up in my American-Italian neighborhood it was an act of shame to take a handout. Our government has made handouts fashionable.

But the big flaw in your body of logic on this particular post is you suggest because someone says it so it is so. This is the madding logic going on within this country that name calling is the argument. So if someone says I find nothing unusual or suspect about the statistics being leveled by scientist concerning climate change the counter point is that this individual is a denier. Being called a denier in their eyes is sufficient to have made their point.

This approach is being utilized in every aspect of our lives and the reality is its hurting us and worse yet we won't know it until its too late.

So forgive me if I take the path of the man from Missouri..the show me state because I am tired of self interest not letting a crisis go to waste

Personal Best Regards

[CFrance]

Quote from Rubicon: "You reference the lack of people being willing to work two jobs, etc. I agree. Growing up in my American-Italian neighborhood it was an act of shame to take a handout. Our government has made handouts fashionable."

Rubicon... how is this not a political statement? I had a post removed in another thread for saying who the Koch brothers are, and I wasn't making a political statement. But your statement seems political to me. I thought we were not supposed to put political statements into this argument.

I'm having trouble knowing what's a political statement and what's not.

As for the climate change issue, I think you are painting with a broad brush as well. How do you know those taking the lead have a larger footprint than those people with the same amount of wealth who aren't taking the lead?

As far as a blanket statement that "The climate change advocates have been continually caught in so many lies and half truths that they have lost credibility," thatg too is too broad of a brush. Some have, most have not.

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by CFrance

Rubicon... how is this not a political statement? I had a post removed in another thread for saying who the Koch brothers are, and I wasn't making a political statement. But your statement seems political to me. I thought we were not supposed to put political statements into this argument.

I had an earlier post removed for quoting Rubicon's "$$$$$" statement in his first post in this thread - see post #2.

If his post wasn't political, how come my quoting it was?

I guess some people just lead charmed lives!

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by CFrance

Quote from Rubicon: "You reference the lack of people being willing to work two jobs, etc. I agree. Growing up in my American-Italian neighborhood it was an act of shame to take a handout. Our government has made handouts fashionable."

Rubicon... how is this not a political statement? I had a post removed in another thread for saying who the Koch brothers are, and I wasn't making a political statement. But your statement seems political to me. I thought we were not supposed to put political statements into this argument.

I'm having trouble knowing what's a political statement and what's not.

As for the climate change issue, I think you are painting with a broad brush as well. How do you know those taking the lead have a larger footprint than those people with the same amount of wealth who aren't taking the lead?

As far as a blanket statement that "The climate change advocates have been continually caught in so many lies and half truths that they have lost credibility," thatg too is too broad of a brush. Some have, most have not.

I have no idea whom I will offend with this post, but surely somebody.

I said on this thread early on and with all the reading I have done since, my thoughts have not changed......I do not believe you can discuss this subject without getting into po...ics ! It has been made that way and thus it is. And since it is pol..ics, stretching the truth is just part of it. With some of the links supplied on here, I have found all the studies filled with "perhaps", "could", etc. so even the best studies have trouble making definitive statements.

If you take something like that.....give it to politicians and you will have pol...itical discussion no matter now hard you try to avoid.

The issue is/has been used as needed by those pol...ticians , and you can check me on that. I do not want to go any further as then we have discussion on an issue that is Pol...cal !!!!

Some have suggested and implied about the younger generation being so much better than the older generation.....THAT kind of thing is certainly painting with the broadest brush possible. Speaking for my generation, all the criticizing in the world will not make me feel guilty, as NONE of this was ever discussed.

I still think it is important but we will destroy OURSELVES well before any climate change gets us if we do not address the moral breakdown !

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Bucco

I have no idea whom I will offend with this post, but surely somebody.

I said on this thread early on and with all the reading I have done since, my thoughts have not changed......I do not believe you can discuss this subject without getting into po...ics ! It has been made that way and thus it is. And since it is pol..ics, stretching the truth is just part of it. With some of the links supplied on here, I have found all the studies filled with "perhaps", "could", etc. so even the best studies have trouble making definitive statements.

If you take something like that.....give it to politicians and you will have pol...itical discussion no matter now hard you try to avoid.

The issue is/has been used as needed by those pol...ticians , and you can check me on that. I do not want to go any further as then we have discussion on an issue that is Pol...cal !!!!

Some have suggested and implied about the younger generation being so much better than the older generation.....THAT kind of thing is certainly painting with the broadest brush possible. Speaking for my generation, all the criticizing in the world will not make me feel guilty, as NONE of this was ever discussed.

I still think it is important but we will destroy OURSELVES well before any climate change gets us if we do not address the moral breakdown !

I agree with you, Bucco, but would add one thing. Yes, I grew up knowing nothing of this and do not feel guilty about my prior practices, but now that I know some things, I feel a responsibility to change my ways, and when I slip I feel present-day guilt.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by gamby

Just in today NBC news;


Scientists More Certain Than Ever on Climate Change, Report Says


Clear evidence and uncertainty

Concentrations of carbon dioxide, the document notes, increased by 40 percent between 1880 and 2012 and are now higher than at any time in at least 800,000 years. As a result, global temperatures are 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than in 1900, Arctic sea ice is shrinking, sea levels are 8 inches higher, ocean acidity is on the rise, and the geographical ranges of many plants and animals are shifting.

"The evidence is clear," reads the report.

Is NBC an unbiased source? Isn't that like calling the Pope to find out if God exists?

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by CFrance

I agree with you, Bucco, but would add one thing. Yes, I grew up knowing nothing of this and do not feel guilty about my prior practices, but now that I know some things, I feel a responsibility to change my ways, and when I slip I feel present-day guilt.

I would go one step further and say you are not near alone !!!!

The premise being brought here about how conscious and aware the younger generation is...to me is pure bunk...TOTALLY !

It is shown daily in so many ways our younger folks, in a general sense do not have a clue. That is general for sure, but once you cross the poli...cal threshold, and you really get into the under employment, etc in this country, you find that jobs are available....we have nobody remotely qualified to fill those jobs except for the older generation. A lot of time is being spent on this subject....I try to stay away from the popular cable channels and when I watch tv, and not sports, I watch the business channel and today that subject was broached not for the first time.

We need to wake up the general population of young folks......THIS IS, OF COURSE, a very general statment...but the comment you took offense to in RUBICONS post has merit. There are demonstrations to raise the minimum wage, nobody demonstrates to get into school.....folks will scream for a job but take offense at training. It IS a problem.

But, and also....climate change enters into this as one of the subjects that most young folks could care about at all. AGAIN, this does not apply to all young folks for sure.

To stay on subject, I think most responsible adults are like you, not only with climate change but with anything we are made aware of....we take greater care in those areas.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

Let's get back on track. The planet is getting warmer. What can we or should we as concerned citizens do to help curb this effect.

Will this pass the test as OK?

Sorry, but even your attempt to get it back to an even discussion is full of bias toward your opinions...

Overall the planet may well be warming a bit. But many who are suffering through this winter might argue otherwise. And even if it is, science still hasn't proven that it's not largely due to natural events and cycles...not exclusively due to man's influence. Does everybody think it's best to curb this effect, or, in other words, fool with Mother Nature?

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by CFrance

Quote from Rubicon: "You reference the lack of people being willing to work two jobs, etc. I agree. Growing up in my American-Italian neighborhood it was an act of shame to take a handout. Our government has made handouts fashionable."

Rubicon... how is this not a political statement? I had a post removed in another thread for saying who the Koch brothers are, and I wasn't making a political statement. But your statement seems political to me. I thought we were not supposed to put political statements into this argument.

I'm having trouble knowing what's a political statement and what's not.

As for the climate change issue, I think you are painting with a broad brush as well. How do you know those taking the lead have a larger footprint than those people with the same amount of wealth who aren't taking the lead?

As far as a blanket statement that "The climate change advocates have been continually caught in so many lies and half truths that they have lost credibility," thatg too is too broad of a brush. Some have, most have not.

Hi CFrance: Apparently you did not read my post in detail. Your response to my comments amounts to one sentence you view as political. I will report myself to the moderator when I finish this post and the one I am going to send to Artic Fox.

Personal Best Regards:

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Arctic Fox

I had an earlier post removed for quoting Rubicon's "$$$$$" statement in his first post in this thread - see post #2.

If his post wasn't political, how come my quoting it was?

I guess some people just lead charmed lives!

Hi Artic Fox I also alerted CFrance. I am going to report myself to the moderator regarding post about government enccouraging handouts
Shame on me

[rubicon]

I am done with this silly thread

[Arctic Fox]

Originally Posted by rubicon

I am going to report myself to the moderator regarding post about government encouraging handouts

I have already told the Moderator that I have no interest in seeing anyone's posts deleted - I don't care how political people get, as I can easily ignore it.

But I would like to know what constitutes "political" so that I can avoid having my posts removed.

I think I was fair in assuming that if your post, which had been up there for eight hours, was not removed for being political, then my post merely referencing it would be deemed non-political also. Apparently not, as it was removed within minutes.

Post away - I am happy to read everyone's opinion. It may not tally with mine, but that's exactly what makes TOTV an interesting place to hang out.

[gomoho]

This is getting way off track and I would just like to remind everyone "It's not nice to fool Mother Nature"!

[graciegirl]

My grandchildren taught us how to recycle. We taught them how to reuse and repurpose and care for what we have.