[billethkid]

I personally have a problem spending any time on such "hogwash"!

[Suzi]

I have been concerned enough for the last week or so, that I decided that I would learn as much as possible. First I began going over the histories of WWII, Korea and the Vietnam conflicts - what started it all, what provoked us to enter the conflicts and then the outcomes. Then I superficially went over the wars about religion throughout mankind - like the Romans, as an example. I tried to catorgise them into "original " instigators, who else entered the conflicts and why and outcomes and unintended consequences. I'm still working this out in my head but the picture is getting clearer. The posts that many have provided have helped greatly in my understanding. Each poster has come forth with an opinion based on life experiences and those are very valuable to contribute. If you have been in the armed services, you contribute concerns to national defense. Many who are Christians have empathy for the defenseless copts.
Their concerns are based on passivisivim and "we should all get along and tolerate each others differences". Intelectuals are of the opinion that we can "think" our way out of this, a peaceful discourse if you will. People with wealth and power think war is an opportunity to gain more of the same. Politicians don't say too much for fear it could reflect on their re-election. The media is there for every sound byte and depending on the party they are affilated with, will slant the news their direction. Whats really good for us as a country is illusive. Not that anything I may finally believe will have any bearing on what our government may or may not do, I should have some opinions formed soon. I feel myself beginning to lean in a direction that is a bit uncomfortable for me. So, I'm entering new territory for thought. Everyones posts have been very thought provoking. Real interest from very learnned people who have shared their life experiences and opinions. I am beginning to think that there may be only one answer - and if thats the case, we better make sure its for the right reasons and not look back - not second guess our choice and just suffer the consequences. But the American people will need to be dealt with honestly. We all will need "frank" answers to our questions. No boloney about PC, no dancing about important issues or special agreements, contracts, and money to prop-up other entities. NO MORE muslim immigration. And our allies need to be on board or they can consider themselves off the Christmas list. We have become so wishy-washy, so PC that we aren't even allowed to call our enemies our enemies. Thats whats "hogwash". Call it what it is and then do something about it until its done. AND THEN KEEP OUR NOSE OUT OF OTHER COUNTRIES BUSINESS.

[Steve9930]

Originally Posted by Suzi

I have been concerned enough for the last week or so, that I decided that I would learn as much as possible. First I began going over the histories of WWII, Korea and the Vietnam conflicts - what started it all, what provoked us to enter the conflicts and then the outcomes. Then I superficially went over the wars about religion throughout mankind - like the Romans, as an example. I tried to catorgise them into "original " instigators, who else entered the conflicts and why and outcomes and unintended consequences. I'm still working this out in my head but the picture is getting clearer. The posts that many have provided have helped greatly in my understanding. Each poster has come forth with an opinion based on life experiences and those are very valuable to contribute. If you have been in the armed services, you contribute concerns to national defense. Many who are Christians have empathy for the defenseless copts.
Their concerns are based on passivisivim and "we should all get along and tolerate each others differences". Intelectuals are of the opinion that we can "think" our way out of this, a peaceful discourse if you will. People with wealth and power think war is an opportunity to gain more of the same. Politicians don't say too much for fear it could reflect on their re-election. The media is there for every sound byte and depending on the party they are affilated with, will slant the news their direction. Whats really good for us as a country is illusive. Not that anything I may finally believe will have any bearing on what our government may or may not do, I should have some opinions formed soon. I feel myself beginning to lean in a direction that is a bit uncomfortable for me. So, I'm entering new territory for thought. Everyones posts have been very thought provoking. Real interest from very learnned people who have shared their life experiences and opinions. I am beginning to think that there may be only one answer - and if thats the case, we better make sure its for the right reasons and not look back - not second guess our choice and just suffer the consequences. But the American people will need to be dealt with honestly. We all will need "frank" answers to our questions. No boloney about PC, no dancing about important issues or special agreements, contracts, and money to prop-up other entities. NO MORE muslim immigration. And our allies need to be on board or they can consider themselves off the Christmas list. We have become so wishy-washy, so PC that we aren't even allowed to call our enemies our enemies. Thats whats "hogwash". Call it what it is and then do something about it until its done. AND THEN KEEP OUR NOSE OUT OF OTHER COUNTRIES BUSINESS.

Very thoughtful research. There is no easy answer to the current problem. I believe to ignore the problem will only put the US in jeopardy. The other question if the US does not intervene to support those that need it who will? The problem is sometimes we try to force our perspective on those we help and not let them make their own decisions. However there is a point in time where actions of others demand that we stick our nose in the fight.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by Suzi

I have been concerned enough for the last week or so, that I decided that I would learn as much as possible. First I began going over the histories of WWII, Korea and the Vietnam conflicts - what started it all, what provoked us to enter the conflicts and then the outcomes. Then I superficially went over the wars about religion throughout mankind - like the Romans, as an example. I tried to catorgise them into "original " instigators, who else entered the conflicts and why and outcomes and unintended consequences. I'm still working this out in my head but the picture is getting clearer. The posts that many have provided have helped greatly in my understanding. Each poster has come forth with an opinion based on life experiences and those are very valuable to contribute. If you have been in the armed services, you contribute concerns to national defense. Many who are Christians have empathy for the defenseless copts.
Their concerns are based on passivisivim and "we should all get along and tolerate each others differences". Intelectuals are of the opinion that we can "think" our way out of this, a peaceful discourse if you will. People with wealth and power think war is an opportunity to gain more of the same. Politicians don't say too much for fear it could reflect on their re-election. The media is there for every sound byte and depending on the party they are affilated with, will slant the news their direction. Whats really good for us as a country is illusive. Not that anything I may finally believe will have any bearing on what our government may or may not do, I should have some opinions formed soon. I feel myself beginning to lean in a direction that is a bit uncomfortable for me. So, I'm entering new territory for thought. Everyones posts have been very thought provoking. Real interest from very learnned people who have shared their life experiences and opinions. I am beginning to think that there may be only one answer - and if thats the case, we better make sure its for the right reasons and not look back - not second guess our choice and just suffer the consequences. But the American people will need to be dealt with honestly. We all will need "frank" answers to our questions. No boloney about PC, no dancing about important issues or special agreements, contracts, and money to prop-up other entities. NO MORE muslim immigration. And our allies need to be on board or they can consider themselves off the Christmas list. We have become so wishy-washy, so PC that we aren't even allowed to call our enemies our enemies. Thats whats "hogwash". Call it what it is and then do something about it until its done. AND THEN KEEP OUR NOSE OUT OF OTHER COUNTRIES BUSINESS.

Good post. You covered most of the bases in your investigation. I might offer a few things that, in my opinion, color or change the hue at least of some of the insights based on history.

We now live in a very small world. Of course the actual size isnt changed but the speed of travel and communications has made us all very close to the entire world. Thus, a threat during the time of Korea, WW2, Vietnam or back when the old religious wars were being fought is multiplied by hundreds and in my opinion cannot be compared.

Next, we have the threat of weapons beyond comparison. IF in fact, ISIS, for example is as vicious as they appear and if they , in fact, are determined, as they say, to wave their flag over our WH, do we not think they will work toward obtaining nuclear weapons of other weapons that can destroy so very many people suddenly ? Of course they are and if you look around the region at who lurks there.....people and actual governments who are sworn to destroy us and whomever our allies might be.

Now add our very porous border, especially in the southwest. There are reports of folks being stopped trying to enter this country posing as Central Americans but actually being from the middle east. Most have been stopped, but the word MOST bothers me.

NOBODY, not just the one who say it because it is politically correct, but NOBODY wants to kill other human beings...NOBODY wants others to suffer.
EXCEPT, it seems those who daily make threats to do such things and are actually succeeding. I have watched in great horror at what has happened in Syria....children literally gunned down in the streets and nobody has done anything to my knowledge. THAT was and is a humanatarian crisis before this one.

I applaud the President for getting involved and I hope it has an "end game" not founded on any political gain or public opinion poll. Those public opinion polls will change faster than a heartbeat with JUST ONE action in our borders.


Just adding this from today's USA TODAY....

"The Islamic State is metastasizing much the same way al Qaeda did, but on an accelerated timeline. Bin Laden's network grew in the 1990s by recruiting foreign fighters who had battled the Red Army in Afghanistan in the 1980s. The Islamic State has developed its own deep bench of transnational terror talent, recruiting from countries throughout the Middle East, Europe, and even the United States. Franchises are reportedly opening in Libya and Tunisia. The North African terror conglomerate Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) has aligned with IS. Nigerian Boko Haram leader Abubakar Shekau has sworn allegiance to al-Baghdadi, as has Abu Sayaaf leader Isnilon Hapilon in the Philippines. The Islamic State currently controls more fighters, more territory, and has a vaster alliance system than al-Qaeda ever did."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...lumn/13622585/

Not quite the JV team we thought !!

[Steve9930]

I'm very pleased with the post that I have read lately. It just may be that these current events will not divide us further but bring this country together again. Great challenges in our history is when the real strength of America emerges. Our enemies may be doing the exact opposite of what they hope to accomplish. As a Japanese Admiral said after Pearl Harbor: "I'm afraid all we have done is waken a sleeping giant"

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by Tennisnut

Your source must be Pamela Geller.

There are many sources. Here's one.


+290 million victims of Islamic terror.

120 million Africans, according to Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, page 62, in 1888.

Don't forget, Hitler didn't have the weapons of mass destruction that are available today.

[Tennisnut]

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

There are many sources. Here's one.


+290 million victims of Islamic terror.

120 million Africans, according to Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, page 62, in 1888.

Don't forget, Hitler didn't have the weapons of mass destruction that are available today.

The 120 million Africans was attributed to the slave trade in Africa which I believe the US clearly participated in. Do we have any responsibility for that?
I would say that is a stretch to say Islam is responsible?

However, Hitler was directly responsible for the death of 6 million Jews w/o WMDs and was getting close to nuclear fission bomb.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by Tennisnut

The 120 million Africans was attributed to the slave trade in Africa which I believe the US clearly participated in. Do we have any responsibility for that?
I would say that is a stretch to say Islam is responsible?

However, Hitler was directly responsible for the death of 6 million Jews w/o WMDs and was getting close to nuclear fission bomb.

I suppose your defense of the stats on how many the Islamic terrorists have killed is somehow admirable, but wonder why you comment on the stats instead of the current situation ????

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by Tennisnut

The 120 million Africans was attributed to the slave trade in Africa which I believe the US clearly participated in. Do we have any responsibility for that?
I would say that is a stretch to say Islam is responsible?

However, Hitler was directly responsible for the death of 6 million Jews w/o WMDs and was getting close to nuclear fission bomb.

Hitler was a LONG time ago. The problem with radical Islam is now. And even if you are not a Christian, you might just be mistaken for one if you live in the U.S.


In order to survive a conflict, you must identify the enemy and all the political correct things that people pass off as reasonable, minimizing this issue, aren't. Reasonable. I fear for the future.

Muslims do not hold their women as equals. Too many Muslim women have had their sexual organs altered so they cannot feel pleasure. How barbaric and primitive and ugly is that. I know this because my next door neighbor in Cincinnati, an M.D., went to Egypt with a team of physicians to try to do something to stop this practice. She is Buddhist. Just google cliterectomy.

The radical Muslims view all who are not converted to Islam as infidels.

No problem here YET, if you don't count the World Trade Center and The bombings at the Boston Marathon.

[Gerald]

No I do not care. They can kill each other. Fighting over there has being going on for thousands of years.

[Rags123]

Originally Posted by Gerald

No I do not care. They can kill each other. Fighting over there has being going on for thousands of years.

Is it then your opinion that we should just trust them to stay there ?

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by wendyquat

I agree and considering their brutality and determination I'd suggest we remove the threat BEFORE they have access to nuclear weapons!

Absolutely amen to that.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by Madelaine Amee

It is a mess of gigantic proportions and, in my opinion, was caused by our greed for their OIL. I am very glad I don't have to make the decisions about how to handle it. Al Qaeda were bad enough, now these crazies appear ...............

When you say “greed” for their oil … I have a question for you and then a comment.

Given that oil fuels our modern economy and, without oil, we would all be much worse off … poverty, no jobs, limited electricity, no A/C, no golf carts etc, … do you really think wanting to obtain oil is somehow bad or immoral?

The irony is, if we really went to war for “their oil” we are without a doubt the most inept imperial power ever. Most of the contracts and benefits went to the Chinese and other countries, who were no doubt laughing at us thinking “how can the Americans always be so dumb?”. One can argue that, given $2 Trillion and many thousands of combat deaths / casualties to liberate the Iraqis, the US should have demanded some form of oil or other payment from Iraq. In addition, we should have kept some level of forces there instead of bailing out … that would have prevented the medieval nightmare of ISIS that is now emerging. You are spot on about these guys being “crazies” by the way … they have a blood lust for violence that is off the charts.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by Suzi

I find this recent muslim ISIS group very scary. I choose not to get into the debate about how long we have been aware of this group, but now that we all are aware of their march through Syria and Iraq, their brutality and growth, what are we going to do? If their goal is to conquer the world, spread Islam only and kill anyone who is another faith, how long before it hits our shores?

What is your take on this whole thing? Doesn't it seem like their fundemantalist movement is gaining speed in the Mid-east?

Suzi ... Thanks for starting this thread.

You, and all of us, should find this latest Radical Islamic group known as ISIS (aka ISIL and Islamic State) “scary” because they truly are. In reading the responses to this thread, it seems that most recognize we have a huge threat on our hands with ISIS.

Here are some painful truths:

• Radical Islam is the enemy of the United States as well as the rest of the West. We all need to stop debating this point and accept the obvious.

• It’s pointless to “blame America” for their hatred and say it’s our fault etc (not saying you are doing this btw). Islam has always been a violent and martial religion ever since the 7th Century.

• ISIS is a medieval nightmare come true. Among other things ISIS has
o Literally crucified some of the people they captured
o In other cases beheaded their captives, and still others, placed the heads on pikes
o In other instances ISIS lined their prisoners up in trenches and shot them point blank
o Kidnapped hundreds of Yazidi women of various ages and who are now literally sex slaves for Jihadi “warriors” … ie at least until they are killed.
o Declared war on Christianity and Christians wherever they can find them to destroy or kill
o Captured 100s of millions of dollars in Iraqi banks .. .which will be used for terror attacks
o Captured low grade uranium quite suitable for “dirty bomb” attacks (ie not a mushroom cloud but they can now spread radioactive material that will contaminate areas for a long time .. .think Washington, New York etc)
o Rapidly exerted control over about 1/3 of Iraqi territory
o Several hundred American and European fighters with passports … making them candidate to sneak into the US

Some other points to ponder

• Al-Baghdadi is the leader of ISIS. He is charismatic, holds a Masters and Doctorate in Islamic Studies. He is beyond ruthless. He has proclaimed himself “Caliph” … basically the head of state of all Muslims worldwide (eventually …ie that is his goal).

• He was in US custody for a while but was released. His parting words were “see you in New York”. Rather chilling.

• Put into different terms, this guy is truly the most likely successor to our generation’s version of a Hitler or Stalin. We cannot ignore it.

• It truly doesn’t matter if we dp not want to get involved, or consider the US the source of the problem, or if we insist on keeping our nose out of it etc. You see, ISIS absolutely WILL attack the US, regardless of what any of us want or think or hope, and I’m talking the homeland. IMHO it will take them 1-2 years to get the infrastructure and training up to speed.

• These guys are ORGANIZED and actually produce an annual report, just like a regular company. I can only imagine the staff meetings they have. It’s also clear that only the boldest and most innovative plans, and warriors, will “advance” and get promoted. They use metrics and what seems to be impressive organizational skill. Unreal but see this link.

http://understandingwar.org/sites/de..._Reports_0.pdf


• I will bet money ISIS will infiltrate Jihadis across what used to be our Southern Border. It’s a no brainer for them. While the US public is wrapped in a knot over “the kids”, they will see this as a huge opportunity to get not just people in here but, more importantly, the actual weapons and such.

• My guess is they will use IEDs (of course) but also dirty bombs likely in a coordinated way.

• The first two targets are same as before … New York City and Washington DC. However, I think they will also branch out and go after utility plants (ie reduced electricity means reduced economy) and other targets to attack us economically such as shopping malls, interstates etc.

• ISIS is very social media savvy. It’s become “cool” to be an ISIS guy amongst the disaffected Muslim youth of Europe, and in some cases the US.

• They are recruiting impressionable young European women to come to the Middle East to serve as wives for Jihadi. They are apparently getting some takers go figure.

What do we do?

Suffice to say that right now, even with the limited airstrikes, our strategy is that of an ostrich …our head is still largely in the sand. We are already in a war with these ISIS guys, we just haven’t been able to face up to that yet. I have some recommendations for actions the US needs to take, but this post is already too long so I’ll defer that for now.

[TexaninVA]

Originally Posted by B767drvr

I do think it's important to ALWAYS evaluate past strategies and outcomes so that we learn from our mistakes (both diplomatically and militarily) and are more effective and efficient in future conflicts. Many people predicted a civil war along tribal lines if the brutal dictator Hussein was removed from power. We've seen the same thing in Libya and Egypt most recently. At some point you have to choose the lesser of two evils. Which route results in the least loss of life commensurate with maintaining our national interest? Did Hussein kill more or did 8+ years of war and now a civil war among tribes?

My PERSONAL (Libertarian) opinion is to basically allow civil wars and regional conflicts to be decided locally, interfering ONLY when America's strategic national interest is threatened (Syria most recently.) In Iraq I would arm the Kurds in the north with modern weaponry, let Iran arm and defend the Shia's in the south, and ISIS will (unfortunately) get its weapons/funding by sympathetic Sunni friends. There are a lot of nations with strategic national interests and security concerns jockeying in this part of the world. DO NOT put US boots on the ground and spill any more blood policing this bad neighborhood.

For those that truly have a fear for the future all I can say is that the US military is incredibly capable and has a devastating arsenal of weaponry. What it lacks, or rather is constrained by, is the political will to unleash any more than tiny bits of it. The ENTIRE country of Iraq could quite easily be leveled (similar to the terrible scenes in Gaza) in just a few days using airpower alone if it weren't for the massive loss of life that would ensue (MILLIONS.) The world community simply won't stand for that level of brutality and destruction… and rightly so. Therefore, we use "surgical" airstrikes dropping a few dozen 500 lb bombs and essentially tap the enemy on the head with what amounts to a little wooden chopstick. Make no mistake though, we are capable of killing the bad guy if the political will exists. And by political will… I'm referring to "acceptable" collateral civilian damage as very little is truly "surgical" on this scale.

Just my thoughts though… your mileage may vary.

This is a good post and I agree with it. We can, and at some point will have to level the ISIS homeland much as we did Germany and Japan but it will take several horrific attacks on our homeland before the need for this becomes obvious. Boots on the ground will also be inevitable at that point for us to truly destroy ISIS, which is what must happen.

However, the main point you omit is ISIS will attack us asymmetrically here at home … using innovative weapons and tactics, and most likely by coming across our porous southern border, or what used to be a border. We will truly rue and regret the day we did not secure it. I’m sure we will secure it after many thousands of Americans die here at home. It’s unfortunate we can’t anticipate, and then act, on the obvious now, but I think that’s partly the nature of a democratic republic. We are slow to rile but, once we have a Pearl Harbor, we go all out etc.