[CFrance]

Originally Posted by striveforhealth

Hi all,
As a future TV-er (Spring of 2014) legally married to my female spouse in NH, excited by the decisions, and trying to understand how it will impact us, I am heartened by this respectful discussion of this issue. It's been fascinating to read and we can't wait to get to TV!

A future welcome to you, striveforhealth. And congratulations.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by CFrance

I don't agree with your point, Polar Bear, that same-sex unions and opposite-sex unions are different. A couple loves each other. They get married. They establish a household, adopt or bear children, plan for the future, invest, work, retire, etc. What is different?

The possible need for birth control for heterosexual couples...the lack of pregnancy issues for male-male relationships...just a couple of differences chosen from many.

You even say yourself "adopt or bear children". The rearing of those children may be the same. But options for having those children are radically different. Are we talking about equal in all ways? Or only in selected ways that fit a certain argument?

Originally Posted by CFrance

...And what does calling human beings all men or women have to do with anything at all? Gender equality has been fought for for decades. Men and women are supposed to have the same rights. I just don't understand what this has to do with same-sex marriage.

Monkei said "Part of being treated equally, would be calling a marriage a "marriage". It would not be equal to call it anything else." Obviously being called the same thing is not a requirement for equality. Marriage/civil unions can have equality just as men/women can have equality. That was my only point.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

The possible need for birth control for heterosexual couples...the lack of pregnancy issues for male-male relationships...just a couple of differences chosen from many.

You even say yourself "adopt or bear children". The rearing of those children may be the same. But options for having those children are radically different. Are we talking about equal in all ways? Or only in selected ways that fit a certain argument?




The poster I replied to said

In my opinion, a marriage is a marriage, whether you're fertile, infertile, decide to adopt children or not. My brother and wife could not have children. they chose not to adopt. Friends of ours could not have children. They chose to adopt. We were fortunate and had our own children. In my mind, these are all legitimate marriages with no differences, so I go back to my original point of love and commitment making a marriage. I can't see how being able to conceive a child or not makes for a different marriage. I wonder if you are putting a very narrow set of parameters on what a marriage is, and my view is a lot wider.

[jane032657]

It just stymies me why so many people are so uptight about the lives of others. Let and let live, love thy neighbor as thyself, embrace life; love and be joyful. Stop putting your nose in other people's business that causes no harm. Look in the mirror and what do you see? That is the real question. If you are worried about going to hell, I really think you are livng in it with all your condemnation and judgement. Those that are accepting and peaceful and loving and open will certainly have their souls floating in a cloud which is cushioned for their after life journey. Those who are full of hatred and judgement should hope that the cloud floaters find mercy and bring you under their wing because the are open and forgiving, just as they were accepting and non judgemental while on earth. There is hope for those who speak so sharply,critically and as if they know what G-d, whoever that is for each of us, is thinking about allowing all men and women to love and cherish those who capture their hearts and live a life of commitment together. I do not think anyone can profess to know what a higher spirit thinks. It is better to focus on being a good person yourself and then you do not have to worry about everyone else. Just look within and reflect the goodness that religon preaches in all that you do. You can't go wrong that way, I just am sure of that.

[Polar Bear]

Originally Posted by CFrance

In my opinion, a marriage is a marriage, whether you're fertile, infertile, decide to adopt children or not. My brother and wife could not have children. they chose not to adopt. Friends of ours could not have children. They chose to adopt. We were fortunate and had our own children. In my mind, these are all legitimate marriages with no differences, so I go back to my original point of love and commitment making a marriage. I can't see how being able to conceive a child or not makes for a different marriage. I wonder if you are putting a very narrow set of parameters on what a marriage is, and my view is a lot wider.

I don't feel my view of marriage is that narrow. but I will admit your view is probably broader. My only issue is the insistence that there are ZERO differences. You keep describing the differences and then keep insisting there are no differences. Even given the various circumstances you describe above are "legitimate marriages", I don't agree that there are "no differences".

You get the last word, CFrance. :^)

And an early 'welcome' to you, striveforhealth!!

[Bill Tasker]

Originally Posted by jane032657

It just stymies me why so many people are so uptight about the lives of others. Let and let live, love thy neighbor as thyself, embrace life; love and be joyful. Stop putting your nose in other people's business that causes no harm. Look in the mirror and what do you see? That is the real question. If you are worried about going to hell, I really think you are livng in it with all your condemnation and judgement. Those that are accepting and peaceful and loving and open will certainly have their souls floating in a cloud which is cushioned for their after life journey. Those who are full of hatred and judgement should hope that the cloud floaters find mercy and bring you under their wing because the are open and forgiving, just as they were accepting and non judgemental while on earth. There is hope for those who speak so sharply,critically and as if they know what G-d, whoever that is for each of us, is thinking about allowing all men and women to love and cherish those who capture their hearts and live a life of commitment together. I do not think anyone can profess to know what a higher spirit thinks. It is better to focus on being a good person yourself and then you do not have to worry about everyone else. Just look within and reflect the goodness that religon preaches in all that you do. You can't go wrong that way, I just am sure of that.

I couldn't agree more. Well said.

[Bill Tasker]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

I don't feel my view of marriage is that narrow. but I will admit your view is probably broader. My only issue is the insistence that there are ZERO differences. You keep describing the differences and then keep insisting there are no differences. Even given the various circumstances you describe above are "legitimate marriages", I don't agree that there are "no differences".

You get the last word, CFrance. :^)

And an early 'welcome' to you, striveforhealth!!

ALL marriages are different. ALL people are unique. No marriage can be exactly the same but they can start off on equal footing and that is what we are talking about. Not whether some produce children and some do not.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by Polar Bear

I don't feel my view of marriage is that narrow. but I will admit your view is probably broader. My only issue is the insistence that there are ZERO differences. You keep describing the differences and then keep insisting there are no differences. Even given the various circumstances you describe above are "legitimate marriages", I don't agree that there are "no differences".

You get the last word, CFrance. :^)

And an early 'welcome' to you, striveforhealth!!

Okay, Polar Bear. My last word is that I appreciate your opinions even if we don't agree, and I think you are very sincere. I appreciate the give-and-take.

[graciegirl]

I like Polar Bear. He is a good person.

[renielarson]

I think Religion needs to banned here on TOTV just like Politics was. This is a no-win proposition and something that should not be allowed for discussion.

Now, for my opinion regarding gay marriage...que sera sera!

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by brightspot01

I think Religion needs to banned here on TOTV just like Politics was. This is a no-win proposition and something that should not be allowed for discussion.

Now, for my opinion regarding gay marriage...que sera sera!

[graciegirl]

I would then feel my freedom of speech is being a bit squelched.

[ilovetv]

This is a thoughtful, coherent essay that pertains to the videos above:

Proud of who I am, not of Gay Pride
What place do Gay Pride parades have in a post-DOMA world?

By Brandon Ambrosino
1:46 p.m. EDT, June 27, 2013

I'm gay. Unapologetically, unashamedly, praying-for-a-husbandly gay.

But I've never marched in a Pride parade.

When I tell this to my gay friends, they get confused and sometimes even angry.

"But you're gay," they remind me. "Why wouldn't you march?" It's a no-brainer to them. I should march because my community is marching.

Let me say outright that I believe there are many good reasons to participate in public demonstrations against inequality and injustice. In the wake of the Stonewall Riots of June 1969, the gay community was absolutely justified....

...But surely there are other reasons to march. What about dignity? Maybe I should have marched in Pride to show that I have dignity as a gay man. But if that's the reason to march, then some of the goings-on of the parade confuse me.

It would be hard for me to convince my parents that I take pride in myself were I to march down their block in butt-less chaps and high-heels. I mean, in the proper contexts, sure, those things can be great, campy fun, and I understand the value of celebrating the queerness of queer. But I don't know that those things are really helping me make the case to my parents that gay people, too, have traditional family values.

Whether or not these marches are actually typified by hypersexual antics, the point remains that those on the outside looking in sometimes see it that way. We can't just say, "So what? Who cares what your parents think about Pride?" because isn't that missing the point?......

Read more:
Gay Pride in a post-DOMA world - baltimoresun.com

[KeepingItReal]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

This is a thoughtful, coherent essay that pertains to the videos above:

Proud of who I am, not of Gay Pride
What place do Gay Pride parades have in a post-DOMA world?

By Brandon Ambrosino
1:46 p.m. EDT, June 27, 2013

I'm gay. Unapologetically, unashamedly, praying-for-a-husbandly gay.

But I've never marched in a Pride parade.

When I tell this to my gay friends, they get confused and sometimes even angry.

"But you're gay," they remind me. "Why wouldn't you march?" It's a no-brainer to them. I should march because my community is marching.

Let me say outright that I believe there are many good reasons to participate in public demonstrations against inequality and injustice. In the wake of the Stonewall Riots of June 1969, the gay community was absolutely justified....

...But surely there are other reasons to march. What about dignity? Maybe I should have marched in Pride to show that I have dignity as a gay man. But if that's the reason to march, then some of the goings-on of the parade confuse me.

It would be hard for me to convince my parents that I take pride in myself were I to march down their block in butt-less chaps and high-heels. I mean, in the proper contexts, sure, those things can be great, campy fun, and I understand the value of celebrating the queerness of queer. But I don't know that those things are really helping me make the case to my parents that gay people, too, have traditional family values.

Whether or not these marches are actually typified by hypersexual antics, the point remains that those on the outside looking in sometimes see it that way. We can't just say, "So what? Who cares what your parents think about Pride?" because isn't that missing the point?......

Read more:
Gay Pride in a post-DOMA world - baltimoresun.com

And now we have division even within the LGBT community, some wanting to distance themselves from gay pride, that sure didn't take very long?

Could anyone explain this statement from the article? "and I understand the value of celebrating the queerness of queer"

These kinds of in your face displays incite anger and cause the supposed hatred so many want to blame on religion.

From the article:

And honestly, if my drag queen friend with the less-than-modest chaps asked to march with him to show that I love him, I would do that, too.
It would be hard for me to convince my parents that I take pride in myself were I to march down their block in butt-less chaps and high-heels. I mean, in the proper contexts, sure, those things can be great, campy fun, and I understand the value of celebrating the queerness of queer. But I don't know that those things are really helping me make the case to my parents that gay people, too, have traditional family values.

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by Bill Tasker

billethekid - you seem to be hung up on this bearing children theme and connecting it to marriage. Many children are born without nuptials being performed. So what's your point? Many Gay couples are adopting the very children your unions throw away. There are also many married hetero couples who have no children. I guess they are not equal either.

No issue(s) with marriage, married or not or adoptive parenting or same sex anything.

My point was/is the simple fact of life that it takes a male and a female to make a child......hardly a hang of any sort.

Btk