[Shirleevee]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I also agree.

[ilovetv]

Originally Posted by janmcn

Sadly nothing changes for residents of Florida right away. Since 2008, Florida's constitution has banned same-sex marriage. Gov Scott's quote from the front page of today's Tampa Bay Times said "It impacted federal law, not state law...As the governor of this state, I'll uphold the law of the land, and that's the law of our state".

Why would any same-sex married couple continue to live in Florida, when they could receive the federal benefits if they lived in any of the 12 states plus DC where same-sex marriage is allowed?

Maybe they would choose to live in Florida because of the financial benefit of not having state income tax.....

....and because they LIKE it here with ocean AND beautiful Gulf beaches, constant sunshine, friendly temperatures, nice people, international mix of people, etc. etc. etc.

Do gay couples really choose which state to live in based on federal financial benefits, (such as drawing a spousal Social Security check even if unearned by working him/herself and drawing half of the spouse's benefit because they've are married)?

It seems to me that it is financial and political-party power gain that is being sought more than a legal marriage vow and commitment and promise-keeping. I've known gay couples all my life who have lived together for decades, and they have not acted down-trodden, stepped-on, kicked around, nor unable to be happy without a legal civil marriage license, even in the 1960's in the midwest which is overall fairly conservative.

The fact that these couples were accepted and people left them alone was because lots of us were friends/acquaintances with them and people would say "They're nice people and they're not hurting anybody, so as long as they don't make advances at me it's their business". I think political party power play is at the heart of a lot of this angst.

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by buggyone

Today's politics and society? Here is a quotation by John Stuart Mill that still seems very applicable today. John Stuart Mill was a British philosopher and political economist known for his contributions to social and political theory. His time period was the mid-1800's.

"If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”

Do you agree with that quotation?

No!! Nobody said anything about silencing anybody. They can all have all and any opinions they so choose.

The quote presented has absolutely nothing to do with the intent of my position.

btk

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

Maybe they would choose to live in Florida because of the financial benefit of not having state income tax.....

....and because they LIKE it here with ocean AND beautiful Gulf beaches, constant sunshine, friendly temperatures, nice people, international mix of people, etc. etc. etc.

Do gay couples really choose which state to live in based on federal financial benefits, (such as drawing a spousal Social Security check even if unearned by working him/herself and drawing half of the spouse's benefit because they've are married)?

It seems to me that it is financial and political-party power gain that is being sought more than a legal marriage vow and commitment and promise-keeping. I've known gay couples all my life who have lived together for decades, and they have not acted down-trodden, stepped-on, kicked around, nor unable to be happy without a legal civil marriage license, even in the 1960's in the midwest which is overall fairly conservative.

The fact that these couples were accepted and people left them alone was because lots of us were friends/acquaintances with them and people would say "They're nice people and they're not hurting anybody, so as long as they don't make advances at me it's their business". I think political party power play is at the heart of a lot of this angst.

Why did you get married? Why not just live with the person you love without going through all the marriage rigamarole? Would it be because you wanted to make a lasting commitment to another person and have it recognized by the law and/or church if you are a churchgoer? Is it because you wanted joint legal ownership of your house, your cars, your children, with no questions asked or hoops to jump through? Is it because filing a joint income tax return saves you $ over filing separately? Is it because you wanted decent health coverage at a reasonable cost for you both?

Just because you know gay couples who lived together and never complained does not mean that they never felt the exclusions, financially and emotionally, of not being considered a legal couple.

I say Bravo to this ruling, and I hope it is somehow brought to the forefront in such a fashion that every state will have to recognize same- sex marriages.

[CFrance]

Originally Posted by redwitch

People will never be equal. The best we can hope for is that people will be treated equally under the law. This ruling is another move in this direction.

A lot of the "laws" of the Old Testament made sense at the time -- don't eat pork or shellfish (no refrigeration); don't mix dairy and meat (at least one might be edible); marry your brother's wife should your brother die (not enough men back then); no homosexuality (need people to populate the world). Many of these same laws/rules make no sense today.

The Old Testament advocates an eye for an eye and removing those parts of the body that offend you. God saw nothing wrong with tormenting Job to win a bet. The New Testament advocates forgiveness and love of all.

Whether many want to accept it or not, the Bible is the word of man (and even one woman) with messages from God. Not all things in the Bible are the word of God. To interpret it literally and try to live the literal interpretation would be very, very difficult for most in today's society. Ask an Orthodox Jew how difficult it is to follow the rules of the Torah today.

Whoo-boy! I agree with you, redwitch. There was a consortium of people who wrote the Bible, and it was written over a span of time--100 years, I believe. We were taught as kids that the stories in it were true, and I always wondered about Jonah and Methuselah and some of the other fantastic stories. As an adult I came to recognize them as parables meant to teach lessons.

But many others believe wholeheartedly that the Bible is inerrant and is the direct word of God. These are often persons from evangelical faiths who have a very conservative worldview. Many have come up with list upon list of chapter and verse against homosexuality, for slavery... actually, anything you can think of that fits their worldview. And the other side has come up with as many chapter and verses to substantiate their opposite view.

This disagreement will never end. I believe what I believe and will not change my mind, because I believe in equality for all under the law and hope for people to be treated equally in all facets of life.

[graciegirl]

Excellent and articulate and kind presentation of your views CFrance and Redwitch.

These kinds of posts always make me rethink if I have been fair or not.

We can make people stop and think about the views they have always had if we present our views in such a way as to not anger or inflame.

That is why I so value both of you. You often make me see things differently.

[angiefox10]

I for one am excited about all of this. For once gays can have the same "legal" rights as the rest of us! How wonderful... a step forward... still more to go, but a step forward.

Now... I always have to wonder when someone wants to "bible thump" over an issue and I tend to do my own bible thumping in return......

As to living by the bible... do we really want to do that? Have many of us actually READ the bible???

Below are some scriptures we might want to live by....

This is one of the scriptures about rape:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT " If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Or... maybe just kill both of them:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB " If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

Or.. women taken captive in a war:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

What about "false Prophets" Which is subjective at best:

Zechariah 13:3 NAB "If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through."

Or... Kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night?


Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

Maybe... we can go back to having slaves? I don't know who they would be today but the bible appears to condone it.

Ephesians 6:5 NLT Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

Oh... and here is a nice little story that will warm your heart about a fathers love....

Judges 11:29-40 NLT "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."

Or... maybe we can just burn the gays....

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

I'm guessing that if you are still reading this far down... your eyes are rolling back in your head so I will quit. Trust me though... there are a lot more where those came from.

Maybe living by the scripture is not one of our best ideas....

[billethkid]

this is almost as much fun as political used to be



btk

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by redwitch

I'm a firm believer in God and all that is represented by God. I also firmly believe that the words of the Bible have been rewritten many times -- think of the many versions that have come about just in our lifetimes.

There's no denying this. As another poster pointed out, all one need to do is visit Barnes & Noble or go online to see how many versions of the Bible there are!

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

Thanks for your post with which I agree totally since I believe the Holy Bible to be true but we already know many will never listen even though the words are from God and not any man....

But WHICH "Holy Bible," with so many different versions of the Bible available? And who among us is in a position to make a judgment as to which it is?

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

It is totally disgusting that Phelps and his followers are allowed to even be called Christians. They do the true church a great harm and dis-service and should never be allowed anywhere near a funeral. There are many proclaiming themselves to be of God when they are no more than false prophets.[/B]

But Phelps and his followers ARE Christians! And they're not some obscure self-appointed sect of Christianity; they're BAPTISTS! But now I'm confused again by the phrase "true church." What is a (or the) "true church"? How is that judgment made? And how is the judgment made as to who is a false prophet? In terms of judging, I was taught that the job of God is already taken, and besides, no person is qualified for the job anyway....

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

I don't believe a True Saved by Grace Christian could possibly believe such stuff as ghosts and reincarnation.

And to complicate this in my mind, now I read that there is such a Christian as a "True Saved by Grace Christian." How is this determined? Are we back to making judgments/being judgmental?

Originally Posted by KeepingItReal

“I can see how it might be possible for a man to look down upon the earth and be an atheist, but I cannot conceive how a man could look up into the heavens and say there is no God.”
― Abraham Lincoln

I'm missing something here. I re-read all the posts and cannot find ANYTHING where anyone says that "there is no God." How does this figure into this discussion?

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

.... The bible was and is written by people using THEIR INTERPRETATION of what THEY heard or thought they heard. The Bible has been rewritten and reinterpreted over the years so many times I would be surprised if it has any of the original thoughts or beliefs from when it was originally started....

.... Please research and stop taking what you hear from an uneducated preacher, your interpretation of a book that has been changed through REWRITE hundreds of times....

Please don't be offended as this is my interpretation of what a LOVING GOD would tell you if you looked deep enough into your heart (made by the creator) with your mind (made by the creator) and just common sense. You must understand and embrace the fact that gay and lesbian comes into this world at birth free from sin.

I would ask that you go to your heart and mind using your most sincere prayer and ask your God for guidance in this mater and stop using someone else's interpretation of God's word. Ask yourself who in the chain of command of religious authority ever said that the KING JAMES VERSION of the bible is the true word of GOD....

We know the first sentence of the above quote is true; it's already been established that there are MANY versions of the Holy Bible, notwithstanding my confusion about how the REAL Holy Bible is determined. Why would the King James version mentioned in the quote be any more of the "true word of God" than any other one? Or are we back to making judgments again?... To go into one's heart and mind to ask God for guidance, rather than simply accepting someone else's views on the subject (or being told what to think and believe...), sounds like an ideal way to live in all ways, not just regarding the court's decision!

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

.... If you follow the logic of an all loving God and not the way the bible has been RE-written with man's spin on it to fit his belief or vision of what is the way to go, then I believe God wants us to welcome all his children and that certainly includes gay and lesbians....

This is also my concept of an all-loving God with whom I have a direct relationship, so to speak, without my giving the space to anyone to get between me and God and manipulate that relationship. My God is, as I say, all loving and accepting. For me, I see little connection between religion and my relationship with God—but now we're back to opinions, and that's mine....

Originally Posted by Schaumburger

If TOTV had existed in the 1960's the same debate probably would have taken place about interracial marriage.

Isn't this the truth?! Remember "the sin of miscegenation"? The details may change, if we're fortunate progress may ensue, but don't we go through the same things over and over? When an experimenter requires a lab rat to find its way through a maze to get its food, it will try all routes until it gets it right, at which point it can just race through. Change the maze and the rat will at first be disoriented and will then being the exploration all over again until it finds the new way through. Put a human being in the same experiment, and when the maze is changed on him or her, it won't make a difference. That individual will keep going the way that doesn't work anymore, saying (with frustration): "I KNOW this way is the right way!"

Originally Posted by billethkid

one thing...... what ever one chooses to believe or sanction or support or not.......is that it still takes a man and a woman to make a baby......

So what ever the man made new laws/freedoms/allownaces/etc change that is one they cannot!

The point in bold above (my emphasis) is without a doubt true. However, what does it have to do with the issue of legally allowing the sanctity of marriage to gay and lesbian couples today (and racially mixed couples a half century ago)?

Originally Posted by CFrance

.... Just because you know gay couples who lived together and never complained does not mean that they never felt the exclusions, financially and emotionally, of not being considered a legal couple.

I know gays and lesbians for whom this is definitely true, whether singles or couples. In general, people feel freer to open up with close friends.

Originally Posted by CFrance

Whoo-boy! I agree with you, redwitch. There was a consortium of people who wrote the Bible, and it was written over a span of time--100 years, I believe....

But many others believe wholeheartedly that the Bible is inerrant and is the direct word of God. These are often persons from evangelical faiths who have a very conservative worldview. Many have come up with list upon list of chapter and verse against homosexuality, for slavery... actually, anything you can think of that fits their worldview. And the other side has come up with as many chapter and verses to substantiate their opposite view.

This disagreement will never end. I believe what I believe and will not change my mind, because I believe in equality for all under the law and hope for people to be treated equally in all facets of life.

Sad but likely true, the point made in bold above (my emphasis). But equally true is that we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs and should have the freedom to express them without anyone sitting in judgment of anyone else, saying that one view versus another view is WRONG. I stick to my experience of an all-loving God who created EVERYONE in His image—whether or not we grasp the real meaning of "His image"....

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

I for one am excited about all of this. For once gays can have the same "legal" rights as the rest of us! How wonderful... a step forward... still more to go, but a step forward.

Now... I always have to wonder when someone wants to "bible thump" over an issue and I tend to do my own bible thumping in return......

As to living by the bible... do we really want to do that? Have many of us actually READ the bible???

Below are some scriptures we might want to live by....

This is one of the scriptures about rape:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT " If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Or... maybe just kill both of them:

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB " If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

Or.. women taken captive in a war:

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB "When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

What about "false Prophets" Which is subjective at best:

Zechariah 13:3 NAB "If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through."

Or... Kill women who are not virgins on their wedding night?

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

Maybe... we can go back to having slaves? I don't know who they would be today but the bible appears to condone it.

Ephesians 6:5 NLT Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.

Oh... and here is a nice little story that will warm your heart about a fathers love....

Judges 11:29-40 NLT "So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter."

Or... maybe we can just burn the gays....

Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT "Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

I'm guessing that if you are still reading this far down... your eyes are rolling back in your head so I will quit. Trust me though... there are a lot more where those came from.

Maybe living by the scripture is not one of our best ideas....

All I can say is, "Angiefox10, I am impressed!!!" Keep 'em coming; these are fascinating....

[janmcn]

Doesn't the Supreme Court make their decisions based on the law and not on their religious convictions? Isn't that why we have separation of church and state in this country?

[Bill Tasker]

Originally Posted by CFrance

Why did you get married? Why not just live with the person you love without going through all the marriage rigamarole? Would it be because you wanted to make a lasting commitment to another person and have it recognized by the law and/or church if you are a churchgoer? Is it because you wanted joint legal ownership of your house, your cars, your children, with no questions asked or hoops to jump through? Is it because filing a joint income tax return saves you $ over filing separately? Is it because you wanted decent health coverage at a reasonable cost for you both?

Just because you know gay couples who lived together and never complained does not mean that they never felt the exclusions, financially and emotionally, of not being considered a legal couple.

I say Bravo to this ruling, and I hope it is somehow brought to the forefront in such a fashion that every state will have to recognize same- sex marriages.

I agree with you CFrance - I am one half of a same sex couple who became the FIRST married same sex couple in the state of Maryland, married by the Mayor of the City of Baltimore just past midnight January 1, 2013. Our picture has been all around the world as the first samesex couple to marry south of the mason dixon line. We were even in your daily paper. This occurred after we have shared our lives for almost 36 years.
Why did we want to get married?? Because just like heterosexual couples, we wanted to solidify our commitment and yes, protect our assets and each other. The ending of DOMA gives us access to over 1100 federal benefits that most heterosexual couples take for granted. As far as religion goes, there is so much God based hatred in the world that I find it difficult to believe anymore. However, there is not one recorded word spoken by Jesus (God on earth) regarding homosexuality. If it was such an abomination I think he would have adressed it as he did so many other wrongs.

[Maryland Girl]

[
Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[/QUOTE]

My favorite quote from my favorite book, The Holy Bible.

[gomoho]

Originally Posted by Bill Tasker

I agree with you CFrance - I am one half of a same sex couple who became the FIRST married same sex couple in the state of Maryland, married by the Mayor of the City of Baltimore just past midnight January 1, 2013. Our picture has been all around the world as the first samesex couple to marry south of the mason dixon line. We were even in your daily paper. This occurred after we have shared our lives for almost 36 years.
Why did we want to get married?? Because just like heterosexual couples, we wanted to solidify our commitment and yes, protect our assets and each other. The ending of DOMA gives us access to over 1100 federal benefits that most heterosexual couples take for granted. As far as religion goes, there is so much God based hatred in the world that I find it difficult to believe anymore. However, there is not one recorded word spoken by Jesus (God on earth) regarding homosexuality. If it was such an abomination I think he would have adressed it as he did so many other wrongs.

Bill - I am curious - if gays and lesbians would be recognized in a civil union that would grant them all the same benefits of heterosexual married people would that work. Or does it have to be called marriage?

[Flyinglady]

Go to Rainbow Family and Friends, I'm sure they have something planned.

Originally Posted by jane032657

Fantastic. A day to celebrate with so many people we love and share the joy of our friends and family members having equal rights and benefits along with all other citizens of the United States. There is a significant gay and lesbian population in The Villages and I wish I knew where the celebration party was tonight because I would love to join in, and also bring some new friends who have moved here who are in a same sex relationship who would love to meet others, and share in everyone's elation. Private message me if you like and let me know where the celebration takes place! It is a time for everyone who believes in equality to come together and say FINALLY!!!!