[NJblue]

Originally Posted by janmcn

Hopefully, these are the thoughts the women on the jury are mulling over and asking themselves, do we want to give this loose cannon his gun back to go out and hunt down more people, as if they are animals, wondering if it could be their children or grandchildren. And then, after the killing, saying he has no remorse and the shooting was God's will.

If convicted, I hope the judge tells Zimmerman that it's God's will that he spend x number of years in jail. He will be in for some fun when his fellow prisoners find out he was convicted for killing an unarmed teenager.

You seem to not understand the laws of self defense. Hopefully the jurors do. If this is the exact scenario that happened that night, even if Zimmerman actually confronted Martin and demanded to know why he was there and even if Zimmerman never identified himself as neighborhood watch, it does not give Martin the right to turn this into a physical attack and it certainly doesn't give him the right to sustain that attack for a minute while Zimmerman is crying for help. It definitely doesn't give him the right to escalate the attack into a potential life threatening attempt to bang his head against the sidewalk.

If the jurors see Zimmerman as the initial instigator and hence fully responsible for all events that transpired, that would be a travesty of justice.

Suppose I see Mike Tyson in a bar and I foolishly call him names and even start to push him - all the while Tyson tries to avoid the confrontation. However, suppose at some point Tyson loses his temper or just reacts from my physical confrontation and starts to beat me up. Once he has the upper hand and I no longer present any threat to him, he has an obligation to stop. He is not allowed to continue the attack just because he wasn't the one to initially provoke it. If he were to continue beating me, despite my cries for help, to the point that I feared for my life, I would then have the right to use lethal force to preserve my life - even though the entire incident would never had happened if I hadn't acted foolishly.

There are a lot of people here who seem to think that if Zimmerman's actions caused the confrontation that he forfeits his right to self defense. I hope the jurors are more schooled in the reality of the law.

[tucson]

Is Zimmerman wearing a body armor? It looks like it to me, if so, he's probably had threats to his life.

[dillywho]

Originally Posted by NJblue

You seem to not understand the laws of self defense. Hopefully the jurors do. If this is the exact scenario that happened that night, even if Zimmerman actually confronted Martin and demanded to know why he was there and even if Zimmerman never identified himself as neighborhood watch, it does not give Martin the right to turn this into a physical attack and it certainly doesn't give him the right to sustain that attack for a minute while Zimmerman is crying for help. It definitely doesn't give him the right to escalate the attack into a potential life threatening attempt to bang his head against the sidewalk.

If the jurors see Zimmerman as the initial instigator and hence fully responsible for all events that transpired, that would be a travesty of justice.

Suppose I see Mike Tyson in a bar and I foolishly call him names and even start to push him - all the while Tyson tries to avoid the confrontation. However, suppose at some point Tyson loses his temper or just reacts from my physical confrontation and starts to beat me up. Once he has the upper hand and I no longer present any threat to him, he has an obligation to stop. He is not allowed to continue the attack just because he wasn't the one to initially provoke it. If he were to continue beating me, despite my cries for help, to the point that I feared for my life, I would then have the right to use lethal force to preserve my life - even though the entire incident would never had happened if I hadn't acted foolishly.

There are a lot of people here who seem to think that if Zimmerman's actions caused the confrontation that he forfeits his right to self defense. I hope the jurors are more schooled in the reality of the law.

While I agree with the scenario as you presented it, I have other questions. You know/knew who Mike Tyson is, GZ didn't know TM or anything about him.

I see many of GZ's statements as outright lies and not inconsistencies, although some are simply inconsistencies. We only have the story as he has told it. That being said, he claims he was reaching in his pocket for his cell phone when face to face with TM. How did TM know it was a phone and not a gun? What is the relevance of which pocket he had put it into? He claims he forgot which pocket and it was in the one where he didn't normally put it. How would TM know where he normally put his phone? Why did he put it in any pocket if he were expecting a call at any minute from the police to tell them where he was at that time as he had asked the dispatcher to have them do? Even if it was because of the rain, he could have had his hand on it in his pocket.

There are two versions out there of the words that were exchanged. Not being sure who said what based on what GZ has said, as I asked previously, how did TM know that he was reaching for a phone and not a gun? Does he not then have the right to defend himself, especially from a rough looking character like GZ was that night, not the GZ you see in court presently? GZ never bothered to tell him who he was, why he was following him around, ask him if he could help, nothing...nothing. He had several opportunities to do so and didn't because "he was afraid". Just because TM already had the better of GZ, why would he let him up to maybe finish getting his gun, especially since GZ thought TM "may have seen it or felt it' when he had him down? Not being armed himself, this kid had the right to do whatever he could to save his own life if he felt that he was the one in danger.

Like I said before, too many questions and not enough answers.

[janmcn]

Originally Posted by tucson

Is Zimmerman wearing a body armor? It looks like it to me, if so, he's probably had threats to his life.

No, that's just 350 pounds of body fat.

[Patty55]

Why is it that every photo of GZ looks like a mugshot and every photo of TM looks like a choir boy? How come this photo is never shown?

[NJblue]

Originally Posted by dillywho

While I agree with the scenario as you presented it, I have other questions. You know/knew who Mike Tyson is, GZ didn't know TM or anything about him.

I see many of GZ's statements as outright lies and not inconsistencies, although some are simply inconsistencies. We only have the story as he has told it. That being said, he claims he was reaching in his pocket for his cell phone when face to face with TM. How did TM know it was a phone and not a gun? What is the relevance of which pocket he had put it into? He claims he forgot which pocket and it was in the one where he didn't normally put it. How would TM know where he normally put his phone? Why did he put it in any pocket if he were expecting a call at any minute from the police to tell them where he was at that time as he had asked the dispatcher to have them do? Even if it was because of the rain, he could have had his hand on it in his pocket.

There are two versions out there of the words that were exchanged. Not being sure who said what based on what GZ has said, as I asked previously, how did TM know that he was reaching for a phone and not a gun? Does he not then have the right to defend himself, especially from a rough looking character like GZ was that night, not the GZ you see in court presently? GZ never bothered to tell him who he was, why he was following him around, ask him if he could help, nothing...nothing. He had several opportunities to do so and didn't because "he was afraid". Just because TM already had the better of GZ, why would he let him up to maybe finish getting his gun, especially since GZ thought TM "may have seen it or felt it' when he had him down? Not being armed himself, this kid had the right to do whatever he could to save his own life if he felt that he was the one in danger.

Like I said before, too many questions and not enough answers.

Even if your narrative had the possibility of being true, it is insufficient to send this person to jail for life. Unless you know it to be true beyond a reasonable doubt - which you admit that you don't, a not guilty verdict has to be the result. I hope no one condones sending someone to prison based on conjecture.

You say Zimmerman had an opportunity to stop this and didn't. We don't know that for a fact. However, we do know that Martin had an opportunity to stop it and chose not to. When Good came out and told him to stop he had the perfect opportunity to say something like, "he's got a gun and wants to shoot me!" or "he attacked me!" or just stopped the beating and kept Zimmerman pinned down in a helpless position - knowing that there was now a witness should Zimmerman try to do something. He chose none of these options and just continued the beating. This is the clearest testimony that Martin was no longer in self defense mode (if he ever was) and was now in attack mode.

Why does it matter which pocket he put his phone in? Why should he have to justify putting his phone in his pocket rather than holding on to it. Are you suggesting that that by putting his phone in his pocket it adds to the case that he is guilty? If so, how so?

As to my bar room scenario. Change Mike Tyson to any random person and play the scenario out. It still doesn't give the random person the right to continually beat someone to the point where their life may be threatened.

[MikeV]

Originally Posted by dillywho

While I agree with the scenario as you presented it, I have other questions. You know/knew who Mike Tyson is, GZ didn't know TM or anything about him.

I see many of GZ's statements as outright lies and not inconsistencies, although some are simply inconsistencies. We only have the story as he has told it. That being said, he claims he was reaching in his pocket for his cell phone when face to face with TM. How did TM know it was a phone and not a gun? What is the relevance of which pocket he had put it into? He claims he forgot which pocket and it was in the one where he didn't normally put it. How would TM know where he normally put his phone? Why did he put it in any pocket if he were expecting a call at any minute from the police to tell them where he was at that time as he had asked the dispatcher to have them do? Even if it was because of the rain, he could have had his hand on it in his pocket.

There are two versions out there of the words that were exchanged. Not being sure who said what based on what GZ has said, as I asked previously, how did TM know that he was reaching for a phone and not a gun? Does he not then have the right to defend himself, especially from a rough looking character like GZ was that night, not the GZ you see in court presently? GZ never bothered to tell him who he was, why he was following him around, ask him if he could help, nothing...nothing. He had several opportunities to do so and didn't because "he was afraid". Just because TM already had the better of GZ, why would he let him up to maybe finish getting his gun, especially since GZ thought TM "may have seen it or felt it' when he had him down? Not being armed himself, this kid had the right to do whatever he could to save his own life if he felt that he was the one in danger.

Like I said before, too many questions and not enough answers.

I agree with NJBlue. It makes no difference what happened in the minutes leading up to the fight. Once TM started banging GZs head on the concrete GZ had every right to self defense and if he felt his life was in danger or he would continue to be attacked he had every right to use lethal measures.

[Suzi]

I grew up in Detroit. I was employed at an inner-city nursing home caring for people long-forgotten. I had the best intentions in the world - to help people that needed it, but I was wrong. I was where I shouldn't have been. A rough neighborhood and (almost) the only white face. I was almost murdered that morning. I was pretty darn lucky that I had the sense to do what I needed to do. I won't go into detail but I learned that there are places where you can go and places where you had better not go. That was almost 50 years ago and things have not changed. Today there are neighborhoods that are unsafe to be in if you are white - get real if you don't agree with this. And if you are black and wearing a hoodie, walking in the rain in a white neighborhood - you probably should not be there.

No one should be deprived of being in any neighborhood and it is very sad about the loss of any life, but it is what it is. If I had been murdered that winter morning, people would have asked "what the heck was she doing there". I was "lucky" and learned a very valuable lesson. Don't go where you don't belong no matter how wrong it seems....I got out alive and he didn't. Its so sad...but its the real world we live in.

[Monkei]

Originally Posted by Patty55

Why is it that every photo of GZ looks like a mugshot and every photo of TM looks like a choir boy? How come this photo is never shown?

Look back through this thread there was posted some pics to remind us just how urban and gang like TM was.

[Monkei]

Originally Posted by MikeV

I agree with NJBlue. It makes no difference what happened in the minutes leading up to the fight. Once TM started banging GZs head on the concrete GZ had every right to self defense and if he felt his life was in danger or he would continue to be attacked he had every right to use lethal measures.

Did TM have the same right?

[Patty55]

Originally Posted by Monkei

Look back through this thread there was posted some pics to remind us just how urban and gang like TM was.

Yes and they lifted from his facebook and twitter, not released by the media.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by Monkei

Did TM have the same right?

He certainly would have if he was being physically assaulted.

[ugotme]

Originally Posted by Patty55

Yes and they lifted from his facebook and twitter, not released by the media.

Are you trying to say the media doesn't play fair?

OMG - I AM SHOCKED !

[dillywho]

Originally Posted by NJblue

Even if your narrative had the possibility of being true, it is insufficient to send this person to jail for life. Unless you know it to be true beyond a reasonable doubt - which you admit that you don't, a not guilty verdict has to be the result. I hope no one condones sending someone to prison based on conjecture.

You say Zimmerman had an opportunity to stop this and didn't. We don't know that for a fact. However, we do know that Martin had an opportunity to stop it and chose not to. When Good came out and told him to stop he had the perfect opportunity to say something like, "he's got a gun and wants to shoot me!" or "he attacked me!" or just stopped the beating and kept Zimmerman pinned down in a helpless position - knowing that there was now a witness should Zimmerman try to do something. He chose none of these options and just continued the beating. This is the clearest testimony that Martin was no longer in self defense mode (if he ever was) and was now in attack mode.

Why does it matter which pocket he put his phone in? Why should he have to justify putting his phone in his pocket rather than holding on to it. Are you suggesting that that by putting his phone in his pocket it adds to the case that he is guilty? If so, how so?

As to my bar room scenario. Change Mike Tyson to any random person and play the scenario out. It still doesn't give the random person the right to continually beat someone to the point where their life may be threatened.

I love good discussions and that is exactly what my intent is here.

I have not said anywhere that GZ deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail. I don't think this rises to the level of Murder 2, but I do think GZ should not be acquitted. I do think that he bears a great responsibility in what happened based on what he did. Reckless endangerment, if nothing else would even work for me. But, the trial isn't over yet.

As to your question as to what it matters which pocket his phone was in, that was my question when GZ said it. My question is not which pocket, but how was TM supposed to know that he was not reaching for a gun? He didn't know who or what GZ was. The law says that you only have to be in reasonable fear that your life or your person might be in grave danger. Given the company indicated that TM kept in Miami, why would he think this thuggy looking guy was not just that...a thug? Some had just suggested that he might have put it in his pocket because of the rain and didn't want it to get wet. Either way, he was expecting the police to call him when they got there so he could tell them where he was.

You're right, TM did have an opportunity to stop when challenged by the neighbor and he should have told that neighbor what was going on. No one at the trial testified that they ever saw GZ getting his head "bashed" into the concrete....just that the scuffle was close to the concrete at one point and that it looked like he was getting hit. Good testified that he couldn't even be sure of that; just that that was what it looked like.

One guy was out there within seconds after the shot and took a picture of TM, but yet did not testify that GZ had TM's arm spread out as he demonstrated. Even those that saw him on top of TM never said they saw that....but then, they were not asked, either. If that were true, then how did the arms get back under him? No one, even GZ standing there looking at him ever said anything about his arms moving back under him. If GZ had seem him put his arms back under him, wouldn't he have done something about that since he already said that he might have been armed? If GZ really thought he was armed, would he not have kept TM's arms spread out until someone else was there to help? Why didn't GZ ask someone to check to see if TM was even still alive? I don't understand why the first officer didn't do that after securing GZ and his firearm. The second officer did and started to do CPR.

If I were on this case in any capacity, those are some of the things I would want to know and am surprised that these same questions have not been asked. I'm not a player in the case, but I still want to know.

[BobnBev]

Originally Posted by ugotme

Are you trying to say the media doesn't play fair?

OMG - I AM SHOCKED !