I am sure you know Politico. And my guess is that you know this guy, Frank Luntz, who wrote Words That Work: It's Not What You Say, It's What People Hear.

I find Luntz' ability to be eerily, terrifyingly fascinating. The ultimate spinmeister. The King of the Euphemism. A word wizard.

I think, somewhere along the way, this guy even convinced some people that the word 'Orwellian' means a good thing. How Orwellian is that.

When I read through his instruction on how to talk about healthcare, I felt like that's all it was about -- the talk. It looks to me like the goal is to talk the talk so they won't have to walk the walk. I could not see any actual talk about solutions, just more stonewalling. Frank Luntz programs brains.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0509/22155.html

Boomer

1. Socialism does not bring about new drugs, innovation and research. The profit motive does.

2. Socialized medicine is very expensive. In order to keep it going, we will need to confiscate (through taxation) other peoples money at an unprecedented rate. It makes no difference who's money we confiscate the following quotation from Margret Thatcher will ring true. "The trouble with socialism is that we too soon run out of other peoples money."

3. Socialized medical care is rationed in most places where it is found. People often die while waiting for care. You and I may not get the care to prolong our lives because it is not an efficient use of resources to perform a procedure (let us say a cataract operation) on a 75 or 80 year old. Perhaps your dialysis treatment will be considered a waste of resources. I am not ready for that, are you?

4. Another thing that would be needed in order for socialized medicine to work for the people, is that everyone must be covered under the same system. Those who legislate socialized medicine must be recipients of the care that they legislate. Do you think that there has ever been any indication that our elite legislators would do this? If not, we would have a two tier system of unequal care. Who do you think would get the inferior care?

We have a limited socialized system now, I don't deny that. We care for the poor who cannot work. We care for the old who have produced our great society. The social security system is in trouble because we have expanded it beyond its intended purpose. Our president now wants to expand our social umbrella far beyond the point that was ever intended, desired or needed. It is not a question of fairness when you by necessity must take medical care away from one class to give care to another class. That is unfair to everyone. Keep in mind that although many people may not have medical insurance, none are denied medical care.

There it is. That's why I am against socialized medicine. You may think that I am wrong. I'd love to hear your argument.


Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition.

Yoda,

Never once did I say that I think socialized medicine is the answer. What I have been saying for a very long time is that Republicans need to offer a solution which will make access to group plans affordable and available to all. All the Republicans are doing right now is saying what it should NOT be. They need to think on it and not just push buttons to fire up the same old reactions that they can hide behind, status-quo.

I hope you do not think I am giving you some kind of assignment or something. But when I saw your post just now, I went back into the archives and found this link that I posted here in March. There are two parts to it. It's from NPR and maybe you could listen to it if you want to and it might give you an idea about why I am so concerned for so many people. Some of whom I know.

And I really am a moderate, Yoda. I thought I was a liberal Republican. Maybe I am a conservative Democrat. Who knows? I never could color inside the lines. But I am as passionate about my beliefs as you are about yours.

I invite you to listen to this radio show I am linking here and maybe it will help you to at least see some of what I see. I know we will likely never agree, but at least you could maybe see my point of view a little more clearly. (I like some of the stuff you say.) The first part is about the under-insured. The second part is about the economics of healthcare.

http://www.npr.org/templates/rundown...Date=3-11-2009

Boomer (I have no idea why I am up at 2:00 AM hanging out in Political. I am so diurnal normally. Oh well.)

Hey Boomer you ask for the repbs to offer a solution to make group plans affordable and available to all. Whats the Dems plan? and what is your solution? And come on, you want us to go to NPR for fair and balanced view points?. This is moderate?
Benj

Originally Posted by benj

Hey Boomer you ask for the repbs to offer a solution to make group plans affordable and available to all. Whats the Dems plan? and what is your solution? And come on, you want us to go to NPR for fair and balanced view points?. This is moderate?
Benj

Awwww, Benj, c'mon, did you listen? It just tells you something about what bothers me about this mess. The Repubs refuse to even try to find a solution. They have access to think tanks. There is middle ground somewhere in this mess. Why do they insist upon stonewalling. Could it be $$$$$$$$$ from lobbyists?

You could just listen to it while you look around on TOTV this morning. You might hear one or two things you will agree with. Can't hurt anything to listen. Aw, c'mon, Benj. Please listen. That's what real discussion is all about. You know that.

Boomer

Boomer
Okay so the answer to my question is the Dems dont have a plan and you dont have a plan but it bothers you that the repbs dont seem to have a plan. Last time I looked they weren't in control. At least I came up with an idea.
Benj

Actually, there seems to be 3 health plans under discussion, not counting the "Don't Change a Thing" plan.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30648497/

Originally Posted by Sally Jo

Benj, I agree with you about the "mushy middle." I think they go along to get along. I never feel like they have any strong convictions, one way or the other.

You are wrong. In fact, I feel VERY STRONGLY, YOU ARE WRONG!!!!

What nerve you have to presume how strongly one feels, just because one is a moderate!

I feel VERY STRONGLY, that I don't want the government to own businesses that can be better run privately.


Yet I fee VERY STRONGLY(!!!!!!!) that certain industries, although run privately, should be regulated, because they impact so heavily on lives of so many.

That's about as moderate as you can get. It is squarely between the the ultimate capitalist view that private industry, regulated only by the markets, should be left to do their business, and the ultimate Communist (Socialist, Leftwing) view that the government should run everything.

It is only out of a VERY STRONG FEELING OF RESPECT for others on this board that I don't use foul or abusive language in this post to show you exactly HOW STRONGLY a moderate can feel.

I hope I have helped to change your thinking that one does not have to an extremist to FEEL STRONGLY about their political beliefs.

Originally Posted by Yoda

........

I am pro life and pro choice . I do not want to pay for abortions. I am against partial birth abortion except for the immediate need to save the mothers life. I would take no action to outlaw abortion no mater how disgusting I may find it because I can envision conditions in which a woman may believe with all her heart that abortion is the only option. ..........

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition.

Hello again,

I have been trying for the last 5 minutes to quote both Benj and Yoda on abortion. And I can't figure out how to do two quotes in the same format as Yoda's here above.

Anyway, heeeeeeeeere's Benj.........

"Even though I'm a member of the loyal opposition, I just cant think of anything more intrusive into some-ones life than any govt body telling any woman she must have a baby or not. I think it's her body and her conscience and her decision and no one else's period end of story." (quote from Benj)

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Well, I just have to say......... even though this word does not exactly roll off my tongue....... even though I am not sure my left hand can help type this word....... I really do have to say it..........oh dear.......how can I say that word......oh my.......but it is the perfect word for what I want to say about what Yoda and Benj have to say here about the abortion issue.....

So I have to just say that word I guess........here goes.......

Yoda and Benj, you know what I want to say about what you said about abortion?

I say, "Ditto!"

In the last election, when the abortion issue was brought to the front, I saw it as a diversionary tactic.

(I will be back in later to talk about health care.)

Boomer

Benj, you are not going to believe this, but I just wrote a big long thing about health care and this internet connection faded out on me and I lost it.

Anyway, I had quoted your post about health care.. But I had a question about the word "selfishness" that is in it. Did you mean to say "selflessness"? Was that a hazard of spellcheck? It happens.

At the risk of sounding like I am giving out another assignment, please look back at that and let me know. Benj, if I am reading you right in that post, I think we agree again. Are you saying that even though you do not like it that the taxpayers will have to subsidize health care for more people, you realize that some help is needed? But not a government takeover. (I am not trying to mess with your words. I am just looking for a clarification on what you meant there.)

And if that is what you are saying, well that's what I have been saying all along. It does not have to be either/or. I have said many times that the people I know are not looking for a free ride. They just want to be able to afford to buy a ticket to ride.

And then I went off on a little tangent about the greeniacs and how while I think we certainly must respect our environment, I think we are being had by some who are just in it for the cash cows to be herded up.

And then I said to a few in the thread enough with calling moderate, practical me "mushy middle" and saying "no fire in the belly." C'mon those are media generated buzzwords. I can hear and read those lots of places. It's part of the language of the far right who ran me out of the party. Those words again. Chants.

So I cannot recreate here the post that I lost, but please let me know Benj if I read you right. And did you look at the link I did about Frank Luntz and how he teaches politicians to manipulate with words so they do not have to do anything about health care? And did you listen to the vile NPR show? At least give the first segment a chance. That is the part that tells one of the reasons why this is indeed a crisis.

And Kayaker, thanks for the link about the plans.

Goodnight.

Boomer

I listened to NPR. A sad case indeed. We can never protect everyone all of the time from everything that could happen. Then, you throw in a sleazy insurance company and that makes it double never.

The present system protects most of the people, most of the time, from most of the things that could happen. Is it better to protect all of the people, all of the time from some of the things that can happen? We cannot protect all of the people all of the time from everything that can happen. That's socialized medicine. It does not work. It never has. There is a plan that is used in Massachusetts. It is very expensive but is an improvement. Mitt Romney caught he.. for it. I think it was his baby. Everyone is required to provide proof of acceptable health insurance. If they do not, they must pay into an insurance pool. If you cannot afford health insurance, Massachusetts will provide it. If you can afford it you must have it. This forces the maximum number of people into the insurance pool in order to spread the cost of health care over the largest number of people. I think that is a better way to approach health care than what Obama has in mind.

Boomer. What is your plan?

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

Originally Posted by benj

..........
As for socialized medicine I have been so disappointed with people here, our age, who have worked for almost everything we have and yet expect other people to go to work every day to buy our healthcare for us. Health care is not a right no matter what you say. Even though It's not an enumerated right given to the Fed govt my selfishness and compassion for people would allow me to support the taking of hard earned taxpayer money to subsidize the cost of a program that would help pay for some kind of coverage people could BUY for one under some age and over some age but only partially not completely. Remember though that slightly under 50% of people here pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits so there will come a time when net tax payers will feel like saps and will maybe stay home instead of working everyday for someone else's benefit.---------------

I too think moderates have no fire in the belly. I think the just want to get along. What I'm looking for is someone on my side that will clearly spell out what I believe in. IMPO
Benj

I know I am doing this backwards, but here is the part of the quote I am asking about in my post above.

I should never type after midnight and now it has been two nights in a row so no wonder I am losing stuff and leaving stuff out.

Goodnight again.

Boomer

Originally Posted by Yoda

I listened to NPR. A sad case indeed. We can never protect everyone all of the time from everything that could happen. Then, you throw in a sleazy insurance company and that makes it double never.

The present system protects most of the people, most of the time, from most of the things that could happen. Is it better to protect all of the people, all of the time from some of the things that can happen? We cannot protect all of the people all of the time from everything that can happen. That's socialized medicine. It does not work. It never has. There is a plan that is used in Massachusetts. It is very expensive but is an improvement. Mitt Romney caught he.. for it. I think it was his baby. Everyone is required to provide proof of acceptable health insurance. If they do not, they must pay into an insurance pool. If you cannot afford health insurance, Massachusetts will provide it. If you can afford it you must have it. This forces the maximum number of people into the insurance pool in order to spread the cost of health care over the largest number of people. I think that is a better way to approach health care than what Obama has in mind.

Boomer. What is your plan?

Yoda

A member of the loyal opposition

Oh Yoda, I am soooo sleepy. My plan? Yoda, I am not among the elected. I do not get to have a plan. I just want them to admit it's a crisis and try to do something. Try to figure it out. Bring on the thinkers. Stop bamboozling people into thinking it has to be status-quo or socialized medicine.

An early buy-in to Medicare would help quite a few people I know who cannot retire. Think of the jobs that could open up. I bet we all know people our age who are slouching toward Medicare.

Make something affordable and good and available to the self-employed and to small business. We have friends who have a business. Just the two of them. They do display work. One has diabetes. Type I. The only plan they could find was $17,000 a few years ago because of the diabetes. And the cost just goes up each year. Good group plans just aren't out there much. You have to be with an employer with some size. And even then it costs a fortune.

We just finished building an addition onto our house. Hardworking, great guys who do their jobs well. But do you have any idea what these guys go through to try to insure their families? One of them just told me that his wife may lose her job because the company is slow on business. Her paycheck covers their insurance cost through her employer and the cost of a babysitter and that is pretty much it. Now, what happens if she has no job?

I see their faces, Yoda. And I think there are too many who do not want to see the faces.

I keep saying and saying and saying that somebody who can nail down the intricacies needs to come up with a plan that makes affordable access to good group plans available to BUY into. How hard should that be to figure out? Yeah, they might off a few lobbies. Those lobbyists have been sloppin' those DC hogs for years. That needs to change. Lifers up there in DC. That needs to change.

You see, Yoda, the Republicans that ran me out do not see it as a problem because it is not their problem. They are covered for life. And they can have all the slop they want. And they have Frank Luntz to manipulate the language and program it into those voters who don't want to see. And who are willing to let others think for them and tell them what to say. Repeated phrases. Over and over. Mind-numbing phrases.

So that was my what and why, Yoda.

And now, goodnight for the third time. (Been up late two nights in a row. And hanging out in Political. I must be losing my mind.)

Boomer

Boomer, your posts in Political have really made me think and it is obvious that you are much better informed than me. To become informed is to subject myself to really reading and really listening to what is happening now, and when I do that, I get so stressed that I can't sleep and my health suffers. I can't eat. I get all nervous and jerky. (Mostly jerky)

I appreciate your keeping an eye on the world and on Cincinnati and I would appreciate it if you can tap me on the shoulder and tell me when I should act.

The problems with socialized medicine are twofold.

One - the public expectation of what that care shall provide can never be met at any cost. There will always be situations where care is administered too little, too late or not at all, simply because there will be a finite amount of resources trying to satisfy an infinite demand.

Two - no matter what delivery system is set up to provide care, there will always be a segment of the population which will exploit it to the detriment of others. The best current example is hospital emergency room service - go into any emergency room at any hour of the day, and there are people seeking "clinic" type care for everything from runny noses to gout, and the ER has no chooice but to service them. Add to that fact is that in many of the ERs the a significant percentage of patients are illegal aliens - a problem most obvious in the nborder regions.

Perhaps a plan could be for the US Public Health Service to establish 24/7 open-door clinics in proximiity to hospital emergency rooms, so that ERs can be ERs again. USPHS clinics would have patient responsibility, and if additional services are needed, USPHS might provide vouchers redeemable for more expansive medical services. Anything else would appear to drag the quality of future care to the lowest common denominator - not a comforting thought!