[MrChip72]

Interesting that the dozens of high up people in Russia all died by "accident" since the war began (falling out of windows, bizarre car accidents, sudden heart attacks, etc). Not a single one of them that I can think of were just openly taken out by the government even though I'm sure most Russian's know that the accidents are not really accidents. It's like a giant charade.

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by Rainger99

Wagner group leader killed in plane crash!

Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin was on passenger list of jet that crashed, officials say | AP News

Almost as shocking as Jeffrey Epstein's suicide in a cell with 24/7/365 surveillance and son of a gun... camera failure at that very moment...so yes, it's as shocking as that.

[Pairadocs]

Originally Posted by justjim

Sadly this is the way an Authoritarian Dictatorship works. No surprise.

"Should" make each and everyone of us here, U.S. citizens, think about how easily and quickly an authoritarian government can develop. Puts a whole new perspective on doing DEEP research before voting, not just reading signs and slogans. Regardless of the "party" one leans to, that should be a very minor, if any, part of the voting decision. Judges, mayors, council members. committee members, every individual should be thoroughly researched ... and that takes a significant amount of motivation and determination. Many examples on both sides of the "isle" that blind party "loyalty" by the common masses is the road to destruction.

[bowlingal]

Putin has planned many, many, many, "accidents". Not so sure he was on the plane at all, faked his death to escape the iron grasp of Putin and is planning an assassination. They all know what Putin is, and wouldn't have believed for a second they were safe.

[askcarl]

Originally Posted by bowlingal

Putin has planned many, many, many, "accidents". Not so sure he was on the plane at all, faked his death to escape the iron grasp of Putin and is planning an assassination. They all know what Putin is, and wouldn't have believed for a second they were safe.

Or... Prigozhin and friends were already deceased and this was the cover act.

[ThirdOfFive]

I’m not sure why people care about stuff like this. This is a family squabble: Russia and Ukraine are first cousins. They’ve been part of the same country throughout history more often than not. They share something else: a corruption so deep that the two countries are ranked first and second among all the governments of Europe in that regard.

Taking sides in this conflict was a mistake from the getgo. One thing for sure is that Putin is as ruthless as they come, and he CANNOT afford to lose this war. He’ll take things as far as he needs to, and he won’t stop at offing just his internal enemies in order to do that. Europe and the rest of the West buddying up to Ukraine is only making a bad thing worse.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

I’m not sure why people care about stuff like this. This is a family squabble: Russia and Ukraine are first cousins. They’ve been part of the same country throughout history more often than not. They share something else: a corruption so deep that the two countries are ranked first and second among all the governments of Europe in that regard.

Taking sides in this conflict was a mistake from the getgo. One thing for sure is that Putin is as ruthless as they come, and he CANNOT afford to lose this war. He’ll take things as far as he needs to, and he won’t stop at offing just his internal enemies in order to do that. Europe and the rest of the West buddying up to Ukraine is only making a bad thing worse.

Putin's STATED ambition is to RESTORE the Soviet Union. If he were to succeed in that or the taking countries one at a time, the end result would be EXTREME problems for both Europe and the US. It is IMPERATIVE for the US and Europe to be willing to FIGHT for the FREEDOM that they have and ENJOY. If the US were to allow free reign to a Dictatorship like Putin's Russia, he would start gobbling up small countries along Europe's border like Estonia.
........Just as an example, Estonia is a VERY sophisticated, freedom-loving country that has prospered greatly from its protection within Europe and by extension, protection from the US. Russia is an avowed US enemy (Freedom vs Dictatorship) and in the Ukrainian conflict, it is a SIMPLE situation that it is better to fight Russia there and have them wasting their money and GNP there than on nuclear subs and missiles that can threaten us RIGHT HERE in the US of A.
.....Also, Ukraine has been trying everything possible to clean up any corruption within their country so that SOMEDAY they can get admitted into the European Union. Right now they have an existential crisis to deal with. I personally admire their patriotism, innovation, and fighting tenacity. We are learning battlefield techniques from them like their use of explosive-carrying small robotic boats. If Ukraine had better control over the sky by better aircraft, they would be dominating the Russian forces.

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Putin's STATED ambition is to RESTORE the Soviet Union. If he were to succeed in that or the taking countries one at a time, the end result would be EXTREME problems for both Europe and the US. It is IMPERATIVE for the US and Europe to be willing to FIGHT for the FREEDOM that they have and ENJOY. If the US were to allow free reign to a Dictatorship like Putin's Russia, he would start gobbling up small countries along Europe's border like Estonia.
........Just as an example, Estonia is a VERY sophisticated, freedom-loving country that has prospered greatly from its protection within Europe and by extension, protection from the US. Russia is an avowed US enemy (Freedom vs Dictatorship) and in the Ukrainian conflict, it is a SIMPLE situation that it is better to fight Russia there and have them wasting their money and GNP there than on nuclear subs and missiles that can threaten us RIGHT HERE in the US of A.
.....Also, Ukraine has been trying everything possible to clean up any corruption within their country so that SOMEDAY they can get admitted into the European Union. Right now they have an existential crisis to deal with. I personally admire their patriotism, innovation, and fighting tenacity. We are learning battlefield techniques from them like their use of explosive-carrying small robotic boats. If Ukraine had better control over the sky by better aircraft, they would be dominating the Russian forces.

I wonder—what will be the reaction of the West when Russia drops that first hydrogen bomb and obliterates Kiev? Or Kharkov? Or Sevastopol? Ukraine has no known way to retaliate in kind. Would we just stand back and accept the consequences? Or does NATO respond in kind and throw a salvo of mushroom clouds at Russia, thus provoking something that we’ve known about and accepted for decades now.

“That” being M.A.D.

This isn’t about freedom. It never is. Oh, “freedom” makes a good rallying cry but that’s all, and if anyone thinks that the average Ukrainian had any more freedom than did the average Russian before this broke out, is delusional. This is about two things; power and survival; and in the case of this “war” that sums it up entirely. And that is why Russia will do whatever it takes to win it.

I personally don’t care if Ukraine and Russia decimate one another. But I certainly don’t want the rest of the world drawn in and destroyed because of an internal family squabble. It’s just isn’t worth the risk.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by jimjamuser

Putin's STATED ambition is to RESTORE the Soviet Union. If he were to succeed in that or the taking countries one at a time, the end result would be EXTREME problems for both Europe and the US. It is IMPERATIVE for the US and Europe to be willing to FIGHT for the FREEDOM that they have and ENJOY. If the US were to allow free reign to a Dictatorship like Putin's Russia, he would start gobbling up small countries along Europe's border like Estonia.
........Just as an example, Estonia is a VERY sophisticated, freedom-loving country that has prospered greatly from its protection within Europe and by extension, protection from the US. Russia is an avowed US enemy (Freedom vs Dictatorship) and in the Ukrainian conflict, it is a SIMPLE situation that it is better to fight Russia there and have them wasting their money and GNP there than on nuclear subs and missiles that can threaten us RIGHT HERE in the US of A.
.....Also, Ukraine has been trying everything possible to clean up any corruption within their country so that SOMEDAY they can get admitted into the European Union. Right now they have an existential crisis to deal with. I personally admire their patriotism, innovation, and fighting tenacity. We are learning battlefield techniques from them like their use of explosive-carrying small robotic boats. If Ukraine had better control over the sky by better aircraft, they would be dominating the Russian forces.

Estonia is part of NATO and the citizens LOATHE Russia...

If Putin tries to take Estonia back, we're talking WW III

[scooterstang]

I don't believe he was even on that plane!

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Estonia is part of NATO and the citizens LOATHE Russia...

If Putin tries to take Estonia back, we're talking WW III

Agreed and that is why it is important to stop Putin re Ukraine

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Stu from NYC

Agreed and that is why it is important to stop Putin re Ukraine

You think stopping him in Ukraine will prevent him from going into another country?

The only thing that will stop him is a 9mm to the back of the head...

[ThirdOfFive]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Estonia is part of NATO and the citizens LOATHE Russia...

If Putin tries to take Estonia back, we're talking WW III

True. Along with Latvia and Lithuania. That is guaranteed by treaty; All three Balkan countries are members of NATO (have been for nearly 20 years) and any aggression against any of the 30 NATO member countries guarantees retaliation in kind by the other 29. In addition Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania all maintain robust multi-national forces stationed on their soil. Putin may be ruthless to a fault but I doubt he is a fool. He’ll not in effect declare war simultaneously on 30 European, Eurasian and Western Hemisphere nations (31 now, with Finland) by attacking any one of them.

Ukraine is different. Aside from Russia and Ukraine sharing the same culture, customs (and corruption), Ukraine happens to employ the unenviable geographic position of superhighway for whatever land force decides to foray into Russia from Western Europe. It’s wide, flat plains have seen invasions of Russia by numerous countries to the west, the major ones beginning with the Polish-Muscovite War of 1610 (The Poles actually got as far as Moscow), then of course Napoleon’s ill-fated attempt, repeated by Hitler in 1941. Numerous smaller forays were also undertaken, through this route and others, throughout medieval and early modern European history. But today Russia’s zone of buffer states (the former “Iron Curtain” countries) are new either NATO members or are cozying up to NATO. If Ukraine defects to NATO Russia, with the exception of their satellite Belarus, lies completely exposed, and with Germany now sporting the largest and most effective non-nuclear land military force in Europe—well, Russians know history as well as anyone and better than most. Thirty MILLION of them died the last time an invasion came from the West.

Putin will do whatever it takes to keep Ukraine out of the hands of NATO. He knows history too.

[jimjamuser]

Originally Posted by ThirdOfFive

True. Along with Latvia and Lithuania. That is guaranteed by treaty; All three Balkan countries are members of NATO (have been for nearly 20 years) and any aggression against any of the 30 NATO member countries guarantees retaliation in kind by the other 29. In addition Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania all maintain robust multi-national forces stationed on their soil. Putin may be ruthless to a fault but I doubt he is a fool. He’ll not in effect declare war simultaneously on 30 European, Eurasian and Western Hemisphere nations (31 now, with Finland) by attacking any one of them.

Ukraine is different. Aside from Russia and Ukraine sharing the same culture, customs (and corruption), Ukraine happens to employ the unenviable geographic position of superhighway for whatever land force decides to foray into Russia from Western Europe. It’s wide, flat plains have seen invasions of Russia by numerous countries to the west, the major ones beginning with the Polish-Muscovite War of 1610 (The Poles actually got as far as Moscow), then of course Napoleon’s ill-fated attempt, repeated by Hitler in 1941. Numerous smaller forays were also undertaken, through this route and others, throughout medieval and early modern European history. But today Russia’s zone of buffer states (the former “Iron Curtain” countries) are new either NATO members or are cozying up to NATO. If Ukraine defects to NATO Russia, with the exception of their satellite Belarus, lies completely exposed, and with Germany now sporting the largest and most effective non-nuclear land military force in Europe—well, Russians know history as well as anyone and better than most. Thirty MILLION of them died the last time an invasion came from the West.

Putin will do whatever it takes to keep Ukraine out of the hands of NATO. He knows history too.

I agree with this post. I might add that the wide, flat plains of Ukraine make it a potential breadbasket for grain that would flow unrestricted to Europe and Africa if and when this war is over. My opinion is that Ukraine has wanted to be integrated into Europe for a long time. Right now they might be a better ally for Europe and the US than Turkey and Hungary. I think that the reason that they have been successful in this war is because their soldiers know that if they don't fight hard and innovate, their country will NOT survive. The Russian soldiers don't seem to be motivated and seem confused. Many have surrendered without a fight and some early in the war punched holes in their tank's fuel containers and walked away.

[Stu from NYC]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

You think stopping him in Ukraine will prevent him from going into another country?

The only thing that will stop him is a 9mm to the back of the head...

Perhaps not but he is losing a lot of his military assets doing what he is doing.

He aint getting any younger so his time is coming to an end.