[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by bfarmer3

You are definitely off base here. I am conservative and do not want the government or anyone else to stick their nose into my business. The idea of a vaccine passport is Orwellian. If you have your shot why do you care if I have one or not? It's none of your business.

Yet another misread, God love us! Let's FOCUS!

Read my original post, bfarmer... "Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal" <to ban vaccine passports>. That's the whole point of this thread.

In other words, conservatives are supporting the government interfering with restaurants, offices and other businesses by not letting them have the freedom to choose who they serve. This is contrary to basic conservative ideals.

Sorry you misunderstood.

[Rooklift]

How can your vacation be ruined by someone getting sick? If you are vaccinated then there is no issue. Stop trying to impose your will on me.

[Heyitsrick]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

See what I mean? (Yet?!?)

The government, via DeSantis, is trying to control businesses' freedom to choose whom they serve.

Funny thing, that "freedom to choose whom they serve" notion. You must mean it's ok for a company to enforce a policy such as "we don't serve Englishmen here" or some such, right? That's the "freedom" you're referring to?

[Sailohio]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

I'd like to respectfully throw something out there for discussion and perhaps we can learn a bit from each other.

Our governor has said he will prohibit vaccine passports which would require us to prove we've been vaccinated in order to gain access to some businesses, offices, or restaurants.

I find it interesting because it speaks to how we all want the best for our country; we just approach it in different ways. Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal. Liberals are generally okay with government regulation but do indeed want a vaccine passport which DeSantis is opposing.

Just goes to show modern American life is not all cut and dried. We all have to give a little.

If you want to respond but feel the need to be belligerent or snarky, please move on to the next thread. Thanks.

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis Says He'll Ban Vaccine Passports

I think our governor is being consistent with Republicans restricting government control by opposing Covid passports. He would be supporting government control if he allowed our state to require them.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Jhnidy

How did you determine the positions of conservatives and liberals?

The observations I made in my original post are common general knowledge and pretty universally accepted political doctrine. You think I would dare stick my neck out on this board if they weren't ironclad? If you disagree, please sing out!

[Heyitsrick]

Originally Posted by Tmarkwald

Great comments - I'm more about the leisure traveler. Business travel is a different animal entirely. A long discourse on that is pointless, I suppose since international business will continue regardless of any restrictions on travel. Any business that can be conducted remotely will probably continue after a year of doing so.

However, the leisure traveler will certainly not be spending the $$ in the destination since they won't be there. But I doubt that the impact to the economy will be greater than if unvaccinated travelers show up and then a population center gets a Covid-19 breakout.

So, my assumption is that, at least for the foreseeable future, restricting travel only to those who can unequivocally prove they are inoculated is the safest way to keep any outbreaks from occurring. Everyone is running scared right now...

I wasn't talking about "business travel". I mean everyday people going on vacations. To an entity that depends upon tourism, every individual visitor counts.

Why would someone need to show or present a digital-based card to prove they've been vaccinated? So now the CDC paper cards people are given post vaccination(s) are already obsolete?

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by Rooklift

How can your vacation be ruined by someone getting sick?

How can you even address this...

hmmm, you're at a resort. Some unvaccinated person causes an outbreak amongst other nonvaccinated and you go on lockdown;

You're on a 14 night cruise and on day 3 someone gets sick and you are confined to your cabin for the rest of the trip - or quarantined in a foreign port.

You're on one of those 15 hour flights to Asia/Africa and someone gets very ill on the flight and is taken off - spot check reveals Covid. You're escorted in a quarantine hotel ..

Get the picture? What gives anyone the right to recklessly endanger someone else's livelihood or leisure time?

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by MrWilson

Businesses and govt forcing a citizen to ingest any chemical, drug or chip is wrong.
When do individuals get their “ inalienable right” to be free.
Govt telling us to drug up is bad , businesses are intolerable

Okay, but aren't restaurants, offices and businesses also free to determine who they wish to serve? Otherwise we're interfering with their freedom, which is a conservative no no.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Astron

I am very surprised by the Governor extending the passport ban to private businesses. The traditional conservative mantra is to let the market decide. If Publix wants to require a vaccination to shop there, shouldn’t the conservative position be to let them. If people stop shopping there, they will remove the requirement, if people feel safer there, their business will increase. Let the market decide.

THANK YOU!!! Finally someone gets the essence of my original post!!!

Muhammad has come to the mountain!

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by LiverpoolWalrus

Okay, but aren't restaurants, offices and businesses also free to determine who they wish to serve? Otherwise we're interfering with their freedom, which is a conservative no no.

Yes, they have the right to refuse service for sure..

"Can airlines, restaurants, stores and stadiums make the vaccine a condition of doing business with you?

Yes, within the anti-discrimination laws.

“They can decide to refuse service to you for pretty much any reason,” "most shoppers are already familiar with: no shirt, no shoes, no service."

People who are covered by anti-discrimination laws can’t just demand a business let them do whatever they want.

The company just has to give you a reasonable accommodation, so a store might refuse you entry but offer curbside pick-up of groceries.

source: Will the COVID-19 vaccine be mandatory? What the law says

[blueash]

Originally Posted by golfing eagles

Idiotic idea-----Very Simple

Why?????
Because even those that are vaccinated may be in the 5% that do not acquire immunity (or 20+% with J&J or Astra-Zeneca), and then there is the question of how long that immunity lasts. So someone gets the vaccine, gets the "passport", and then we still don't know if they are any different than the unvaccinated. And they are certainly less protected than those who had COVID and recovered, but not vaccinated.
How long is the "passport" good for? Renew every what? 3 months,6 months, year? How do you get "100% proof" that a person previously vaccinated is still immune? The "experts" tell us that the antibody test is not valid for that purpose, it is only a marker of previous infection or vaccination. (If it is like most antibody tests, immunity would be dependent upon the titer, usually a 1:32 dilution is adequate, but this is a novel virus and I don't think this has been studied)

So playing out this "passport" scenario, it would be entirely possible, even likely, that someone who has been vaccinated (but did not acquire immunity), has the paperwork to travel, shop, eat out , etc. , while the person next to him in line without the "passport" but is totally immune by virtue of previous infection is denied those privileges. Same with someone whose did acquire immunity, has the "passport", but enough time has passed that their immunity has faded.

Add to the ineffectiveness of such a "passport" plan is the enormous task of actually enforcing it. Most retail stores that currently REQUIRE a mask do not challenge customers who are not wearing one. Imagine the difficulty with something as invasive as a vaccine?

I am disappointed and expect better from you. No vaccine is 100% effective. Nonetheless children cannot go to school without proof of immunization. You know that and I think you support that. No school would claim that having their students immunized totally guarantees that those particular illnesses will never be spread in the school. But requiring proof of immunization is the best a school can do, so that is what the law requires. Might some parent forge a vaccine certificate, sure.

All those countries that require proof of Yellow Fever vaccination. Are you going to tell them what a foolish idea that is as the vaccine likely has a failure rate as well or do you think that is a reasonable precaution against a disease that kills about 50,000 a year? Over time, if we get a requirement for a Covid passport, the issues of how recent a booster is needed for the passport to be valid will be answered. You know that.

Arguing that a vaccine passport is not perfect is not a reason to reject the idea. No public health measure is perfect. No vaccine is perfect. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. You know that too.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Rooklift

Show your evidence that conservatives are for a vaccine id card. I disagree with your claim.

And another misread.

Read my original post, Rook..."Conservatives are not fond of government interference in general, but they support this proposal" <to ban vaccine passports>. That's the whole point of this thread.

In other words, conservatives are supporting the government interfering with restaurants, offices and other businesses by not letting them have the freedom to choose who they serve. This is contrary to basic conservative ideals.

Sorry you misunderstood.

HEY MOD - how about retiring this thread? Too many are not getting it. And others are talking about something else.

Only one person in 14 pages got my point about the governor going against conservative principles. Everything else that can be said tangentially has been said.

[Tmarkwald]

Originally Posted by blueash

I am disappointed and expect better from you. No vaccine is 100% effective. Nonetheless children cannot go to school without proof of immunization. You know that and I think you support that. No school would claim that having their students immunized totally guarantees that those particular illnesses will never be spread in the school. But requiring proof of immunization is the best a school can do, so that is what the law requires. Might some parent forge a vaccine certificate, sure.

All those countries that require proof of Yellow Fever vaccination. Are you going to tell them what a foolish idea that is as the vaccine likely has a failure rate as well or do you think that is a reasonable precaution against a disease that kills about 50,000 a year? Over time, if we get a requirement for a Covid passport, the issues of how recent a booster is needed for the passport to be valid will be answered. You know that.

Arguing that a vaccine passport is not perfect is not a reason to reject the idea. No public health measure is perfect. No vaccine is perfect. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. You know that too.

Remember Polio? Well, thanks to anti-vaxxers, it's coming back....

In 2019, some humans have continued to spew anti-vaccination propaganda not backed by scientific evidence, claiming that vaccine-preventable diseases are not that serious and that stuff like supplements can replace vaccinations. This has essentially served as good PR for the polio viruses, hindering efforts to vaccinate people around the world.

Fighting Polio: What Happened In 2019 And What Is Next

[Spalumbos62]

Originally Posted by MrWilson

Businesses and govt forcing a citizen to ingest any chemical, drug or chip is wrong.
When do individuals get their “ inalienable right” to be free.
Govt telling us to drug up is bad , businesses are intolerable

I really feel some people have a mental block or lack of reasoning.
No one is saying you must get vaccinated, you must then carry your card to " come aboard"
They are saying...if you want to enter and eat at MY restaurant, you need a vaccine and mask. You want to ride my boat....again vaccine/proof and mask. Etc,etc
You and I have all these wonderful rights.....but there are rules. There is no malice toward you...just safety rules.
No pouting,or crying or acting like a child is gonna change it.
So please stop.

[LiverpoolWalrus]

Originally Posted by Heyitsrick

Funny thing, that "freedom to choose whom they serve" notion. You must mean it's ok for a company to enforce a policy such as "we don't serve Englishmen here" or some such, right? That's the "freedom" you're referring to?

So what's your position, Rick? Should businesses be free to choose? If so, that's a classic conservative position. If not free to choose whom they serve, well, that's DeSantis' proposal.

Me, no, I don't believe businesses have the right to deprive people of basic human rights. And I don't care if they are "private." The Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are "people" because individual humans are behind corporate decisions to grant or withhold equal treatment.