[pooh]

Originally Posted by Cantwaittoarrive

It's a 20 year study. I of course have no idea what the results have been for any of the other particpates and of course like any study they can always publish and or end the study at any time. I just think it's dangerous to issue blanket statements about anything! responsible researchers will never issue statements stating all people should do this or that activity or protocol. When novice that base their advice to others from a few books or from research based on Google searches I think it's dangerous. Every one is different, every one reacts to the same stimulus differently.

Thank you, and I agree with all you've said. Continued success, for you, and all others taking part in this study. Hopefully when it is complete, data will provide an even better view of the correlation between diet, health and well being.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I agree that the standard American diet is way too high in saturated fat, especially from all the many animal products. And I agree that those who have a family history of heart disease must take special care to limit saturated fat.

However, I just remembered reading something years ago about the fact that we need some saturated fat in our diets. If we don't get any from our diets our bodies will manufacture it but it won't be as good as what we would get from food. It's important for the building of cell membranes and it also serves as fuel for your heart and other tissues. The bottom line: Saturated fats should be strictly limited but not completely eliminated.

The amount you would get from using a small amount of olive oil, for example, would not be harmful.

For a more complete explanation, search the following: "Why do you need saturated fat? Wiki answers.com"

From the Wiki article that you posted

Adequate consumption of unsaturated fats will indirectly provide the miniscule amount of saturated fat needed by the human body. Saturated fat can be very dangerous, and someone who's health necessitates vigilance in this matter should not be given a free pass to consume saturated fats, nor should they use palm oil as a healthy option.

[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Isn't it better to strive for more fruits and vegetables and less saturated fats in our diet and to up our exercise and moving about? I get the feeling from the two big vegan/vegetarian posters here that advocate this extreme diet that nothing else but theirs is a good enough life style.

I never said that, I only offered to info and my results.
You can lead a horse to water...........

Extreme, not really millions are making the change.

It would be hard for most of us to eschew all meats and dairy and I am not convinced it is healthy-er.

It may be harder to deal with cancer or other ailments (with many meds) than eat better.

Gracie, did you yet read the two books or watch the dvd's I suggested yet?

Want an alternative, try a vegan diet with condiment size (2" x 2") portions of meat.

Dairy can easily be replaced.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Cantwaittoarrive

It's dangerous to make blanket statements about anything.

If I say a vegan lifestyle is better than any other lifestyle, how dangerous can that be? Has anyone ever died in their attempt to become a vegan?

In any study that's done never do 100% of the study partcipates reap the benifits or show the negative side effects of whatever is being studied.

We assume a certain minimum level of knowledge about these things. Nothing is ever 100% when it comes to health and nutrition and everyone should know this.

Certain ethnic groups respond to medication or food or nutrition different than other ethnic groups. In some cases males respond different than females and so on.

Why mention medication? The mediterranean diet is about food, not medication. Ethnic groups: where's the proof that different ethnic groups respond differently to food and nutrition? And how many parents feed their daughters differently than they feed their sons? I never noticed it in my family or any other family.

i have been part of an on going study (last 10 years) still unpublished.

Does this study have a name? I'm in the "NIH AARP Diet and Health Study" and it's been going since 1995. They have already published severl papers in medical journals.

I consume 65% of my caloric intake a day in animal fats and plant oils. my arteries are clean as a whistle, I lost 50 pounds at the start of the study and have kept it off. And i have 7% body fat

Your health reminds me of the health my father had. He ate a good amount of meat, eggs, cheese etc every day. And at age 78 or 79 it was determined (by some type of body scan) that his arteries were "clean as a whistle". But his diet did not protect him from cancer and Alzheimer's. He had both at the same time and died from one or both of those diseases. I believe it said "cancer" on his death certificate.

So you need to find the diet that will give you the best protection from ALL degenerative diseases. In other words, you need to cover all the bases. For most people veganism will accomplish this. And, remember, it's never about 100% certainty, it's all about reducing risk.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

If I say a vegan lifestyle is better than any other lifestyle, how dangerous can that be? Has anyone ever died in their attempt to become a vegan?

*** the danger is in recommending anything without knowing someones medical issues. What are your qualifications for making this or any recommendations? are you licensed to pratice medicine? are you licensed to pratice anything?




We assume a certain minimum level of knowledge about these things. Nothing is ever 100% when it comes to health and nutrition and everyone should know this.

*** who assumes this knowelge?? you?? well that's a little dangerous for anyone that's not you. Again how did you attain this knowledge? What makes you qualified to say any more than this is what I do and it works for me?




Why mention medication? The mediterranean diet is about food, not medication. Ethnic groups: where's the proof that different ethnic groups respond differently to food and nutrition? And how many parents feed their daughters differently than they feed their sons? I never noticed it in my family or any other family.

*** For anyone that assumes a certain minimum level of knowledge you should then know that food is medicine and in fact many medicines come from products and / or by products of food we eat. After all you are talking about using food to impact your over all health




Does this study have a name? I'm in the "NIH AARP Diet and Health Study" and it's been going since 1995. They have already published severl papers in medical journals.

*** Not all studies are the same this study has a number not a name and the publication protcol is different for each study. Since I'm a subject of the study they didn't consult me on how or when they would publish




Your health reminds me of the health my father had. He ate a good amount of meat, eggs, cheese etc every day. And at age 78 or 79 it was determined (by some type of body scan) that his arteries were "clean as a whistle". But his diet did not protect him from cancer and Alzheimer's. He had both at the same time and died from one or both of those diseases. I believe it said "cancer" on his death certificate.

*** How do you know anything about my health?? I just gave you some basic information not my overall health. Guess what there are people that are vegan that also die from degenerative diseases. There are also people that drink and chain smoke cigarettes and live to be 100 so what's your point. Just because your father died from horrible diseases don't use that to make your point. Diet is not the only thing that may or may not contribute to diseases how about enviromental issues? I guess everyone has it wrong if you eat vegan you will live forever and never have a degenerative disease? Please show me the study that shows this result!

So you need to find the diet that will give you the best protection from ALL degenerative diseases. In other words, you need to cover all the bases. For most people veganism will accomplish that. And, remember, it's never about 100% certainty, it's all about reducing risk.

Again what makes you qualified to say veganism is the answer? It might be for you, but that doesn't make it right for everyone.

See*** answers above

[Cantwaittoarrive]

This discussion reminds me of an example that illustrates the futility of the (my way is the right way crowd). If you want to go from LA to New York City you can choose many, many different routes. You can choose to fly, you can choose to drive, take a train, run, walk, bike skip, take a ship and many other ways. You can head north, south, east or west. Some ways are slower, some are faster, some more fun, some not so much. But they will all eventualy get you to your destination. Who has the right to tell you one way is better than the other or your way is wrong and my way is correct. Part of the joy of life for me is trying different things, keeping an open mind and discovering there are always more than one answer that works.

[Barefoot]

Originally Posted by Cantwaittoarrive

This discussion reminds me of an example that illustrates the futility of the (my way is the right way crowd). If you want to go from LA to New York City you can choose many, many different routes. You can choose to fly, you can choose to drive, take a train, run, walk, bike skip, take a ship and many other ways. You can head north, south, east or west. Some ways are slower, some are faster, some more fun, some not so much. But they will all eventualy get you to your destination. Who has the right to tell you one way is better than the other or your way is wrong and my way is correct. Part of the joy of life for me is trying different things, keeping an open mind and discovering there are always more than one answer that works.

I love your perspective.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by Cantwaittoarrive

I just think it's dangerous to issue blanket statements about anything! responsible researchers will never issue statements stating all people should do this or that activity or protocol. When novice that base their advice to others from a few books or from research based on Google searches I think it's dangerous. Every one is different, every one reacts to the same stimulus differently.

I don't recall anyone ever saying, "ALL people should do this or that activity". It's one thing to give an opinion that you think a certain diet is the most protective against degenerative diseases and to then back it up with large long-term studies, but where did the word "ALL" come from? Did someone on this thread say "ALL" people?

Before anyone criticizes someone for saying something, there should at least be someone who actually said it. If you can come up with the actual statement, we can then try to judge how it was intended.

My statement in the previous post was, "for MOST people veganism will accomplish this". The word "MOST" is different from saying "ALL". And, furthermore, it's nothing more than a suggestion. That's what the Medical And Health Disscussion Board is for. We discuss and make suggestions. As far as I know, no special qualifications are needed for discussion on this board.

Again I ask, "has anyone ever died attempting to become a vegan"?

[pooh]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

.....

Again I ask, "has anyone ever died attempting to become a vegan"?

I will assume you mean adults, VPL and not children.

[Villages PL]

Originally Posted by pooh

I will assume you mean adults, VPL and not children.

I think mother's milk is needed in the beginning for good growth and development. And that's not veganism. Also, if kids don't get some form of concentrated protein during their growing years, they will likely be shorter than average. But kids have been raised on vegan diets. For example, the author of "The China Study" raised his kids on a vegan diet and one son was a co-author of the book.

[pooh]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I think mother's milk is needed in the beginning for good growth and development. And that's not veganism. Also, if kids don't get some form of concentrated protein during their growing years, they will likely be shorter than average. But kids have been raised on vegan diets. For example, the author of "The China Study" raised his kids on a vegan diet and one son was a co-author of the book.

I probably should clarify, I'm talking about very young children, infants and children probably less than 2 years of age. Their nutritional needs are quite different and a vegan diet probably will not provide necessary, vital nutrients needed during critical growth periods.


The information you are providing is for adults, I have no doubt. Planning a vegan diet to meet the nutritional needs of an adult does take some initial planning to insure necessary vitamins, minerals, and adequate protein are provided so cells can function, repair and rebuild. It seems you are doing well making the correct nutritional choices to keep you healthy and happy.

[galeforce]

That was going to be my question too, what about coconut oil. I know you waid any oil but does that include coconut oil?

[jimbo2012]

Originally Posted by galeforce

That was going to be my question too, what about coconut oil. I know you waid any oil but does that include coconut oil?

Yes it irritates the endothelium lining as well as all other oils, if you want to reduce plaque in the arteries ALL oils need to be eliminated.

When irritated plaque adheres to the location and builds/blocks from there over several years.

Image shows the lining inside a blood vessel wall, they are only one cell in thickness and very fragile when exposed to oil.





Vascular endothelial cells line the entire circulatory system, from the heart to the smallest capillaries.
These cells have very distinct and unique functions that are paramount to vascular biology.

These functions include fluid filtration, such as in the glomeruli of the kidney, blood vessel tone, hemostasis, neutrophil recruitment, and hormone trafficking. Endothelium of the interior surfaces of the heart chambers are called endocardium.

Dr's Esseltyn and Ornish agree on this, I personally have benefited by eliminating oil from my diet in 7 months - big changes.

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Originally Posted by Villages PL

I don't recall anyone ever saying, "ALL people should do this or that activity". It's one thing to give an opinion that you think a certain diet is the most protective against degenerative diseases and to then back it up with large long-term studies, but where did the word "ALL" come from? Did someone on this thread say "ALL" people?

Before anyone criticizes someone for saying something, there should at least be someone who actually said it. If you can come up with the actual statement, we can then try to judge how it was intended.

My statement in the previous post was, "for MOST people veganism will accomplish this". The word "MOST" is different from saying "ALL". And, furthermore, it's nothing more than a suggestion. That's what the Medical And Health Disscussion Board is for. We discuss and make suggestions. As far as I know, no special qualifications are needed for discussion on this board.

Again I ask, "has anyone ever died attempting to become a vegan"?

First I didn't criticizen you for anything. My coment was not directed towards you or anything you said. If you feel guilty because what you were truely thinking is what I expressed I guess you should own those feeling. I asked you what makes you qualified to give advice. I think if you expect people to follow or listen to your advice, knowing what makes you qualified to give that advice is vital, otherwise you're dangerous and so is anyone else that gives advice on diet and health that isn't qualified to give it. I commented on the results of a study I'm in and for some reason you like to try and discredit anyone that isn't on the same path as you, that's so sad that you would be so insecure. I beleive there might be benefits to several different lifestyles including the vegan lifestyle.

But I stand by my statement that advice from unqualified people is dangerous!!

Any vegan moms PLEASE PLEASE don't breastfied your baby without consulting your doc and a lawyer!

Vegan breast feeding and death

BABY DEATH BY VEGANISM - 6 Vegan Baby Starvation Cases - Parents convicted of murder - INHS
Baby Breastfed By Vegan Mother Dies
[Severe vitamin B12 deficiency in infants brea... [Ugeskr Laeger. 2009] - PubMed - NCBI
[Developmental delay in breastfed chil... [Ned Tijdschr Geneeskd. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

Possible higher rates of breast cancer in women
Lessons from dietary studies in Adventists an... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

Danger caused by vegan diet
Strict vegan, low-calorie diet administered by careg... [Med Law. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

Answers for non-vegans
Twenty-Two Reasons Not to Go Vegetarian - Weston A Price Foundation
Articles showing benefits
Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets. [Proc Nutr Soc. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
Mortality in vegetarians and non-vegetari... [Public Health Nutr. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI

Imagine that the Med and Vegan diet both have benefits how oh how can there be two good diets
Nut consumption, vegetarian diets, ischemic h... [Am J Clin Nutr. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
Maybe eating meat doesn’t cause cancer, who knows for sure?
Risk of death from cancer and ischaemic heart disease in... [BMJ. 1994] - PubMed - NCBI


Have fun I'm sure you will work to discredit each and everyone of these you don't agree with and we can go back and forth trading studies to support whatever position someone wants to but I'm done and actual have a life

[Cantwaittoarrive]

Originally Posted by jimbo2012

Yes it irritates the endothelium lining as well as all other oils, if you want to reduce plaque in the arteries ALL oils need to be eliminated.

When irritated plaque adheres to the location and builds/blocks from there over several years.

Image shows the lining inside a blood vessel wall, they are only one cell in thickness and very fragile when exposed to oil.





Vascular endothelial cells line the entire circulatory system, from the heart to the smallest capillaries.
These cells have very distinct and unique functions that are paramount to vascular biology.

These functions include fluid filtration, such as in the glomeruli of the kidney, blood vessel tone, hemostasis, neutrophil recruitment, and hormone trafficking. Endothelium of the interior surfaces of the heart chambers are called endocardium.

Dr's Esseltyn and Ornish agree on this, I personally have benefited by eliminating oil from my diet in 7 months - big changes.

Unless you are qualified please stop giving advice. Even the experts don't know the answers but you are passing them out like you actually are an expert at something besides using Google

Here’s one that says good
Coconut fats. [Ceylon Med J. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

Here’s one that says bad
Fatty acid composition and possible health... [West Indian Med J. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI