[NJblue]

Originally Posted by Whalen

Two reasons I can think of:

1. It's not as easy as it looks. Equipment has to be knocked down and then set up again, very time consuming,

2. there is no place to dance!

If you look carefully at the new CCs are all relatively the same with different paint schemes.
There is no dance floor or band stand inside.

These are just my observations, please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks for the serious reply.

1) equipment can be moved. We were having dinner outdoors at the Lighthouse when the sky was threatening rain. The musicians said that they would start playing outdoors, but if it started to rain they wanted everyone to pitch in and bring the stuff indoors. Not a problem.

2) So the people who built the CC cheaped out on their design with the intent of encroaching on their neighbors' rights to solitude? Yet we are taking the side of the business that cheaped out rather than the neighbors? (BTW, I drove by that area this afternoon and the neighbors are even closer to the club than I had originally thought. At first I thought it might be a Tiger Woods 1 wood shot, but now I think even I could do it with an 8 or 9 iron.)

[skip0358]

As I said earlier and was repeated by another poster what do you do with the people eating inside tell them to leave?? If this is such a big problem to so few people, maybe when new clubs are built and there will be many more. No homes should be built in close proximity to possible noise. If a country club or anyplace else wants to use outside entertainment to raise funds to stay in buisness so ALL can enjoy them then so be it. Next you'll be wanting the fire trucks and ambulances to stop using red lights and sirens to respond to your calls for help' Give it a rest, 8 PM is just nuts, even the town squares play later then that. Maybe we'll have to move them inside to. The majority of the people moved to TV for what was here.We saw the lifestyle it was great and should be kept that way. If you paid a premium to life close to the country club you get what you get. Golf Balls, Golf Carts, People in your yard, traffic and yeh some noise.

[sschuler1]

As someone who owned a business for many years, I can answer your question, NJ. If you are going to pay top dollar for rent, you are going to utilize all areas that you are paying for to maximize your profits. When the weather is nice, patrons that want to enjoy outdoor entertainment can be accomodated on their patios. The noise of the music will also draw patrons to their establishments. They can then continue to serve the regular patrons undisturbed indoors. I have to admit if I was running the establishment, that I would be doing exactly the same thing. It makes good business sense!

I also understand your stand about noise after a reasonable hour, but I have to agree with most people that 10 pm is a reasonable time for ceasation of loud noise. When we were choosing a lot to purchase for our home we drove around the neighborhood to check noise levels. We came past at different times of the day to see all the various activities and traffic levels that occured near our location of choice. We were more concerned about early morning noise, and wanted to make sure that we were not near a pickleball court. Since we are not morning people that was our main concern, and we made sure that we bought in the right area. The maps that are available are very detailed about what is going to be built in the future, so we feel very secure knowing that no other rec center is going to be built close to us. But if one was built near us in the future, do you think they could play their pickleball inside until around 11 am? I would sure appreciate that!

By the way, I don't think the restaurants around here are aware that there are customers around here that want to eat after 9 pm because they are already closed and don't see them walking away from their doors. We moved here at the end of August and tried to find places that would serve food after 9 pm, and had to make do with Wendy's in our hotel room many nights.

[Freeda]

Here are some of my thoughts about this.

First, I think some clarification of the facts would help. It was said that even music INSIDE at, for example, Big City Grill, stopping at 1 AM, was being stopped, or complained about, by the authorities; if so, it's hard to understand the reason for that, and I found that bothersome. (Margarita Republic, for example, stays open at least that late, doesn't it, without any problems?) And if that is the case, isn't it likely that the CC's and other restaurants would have the same complaints, even if the music were inside? So clarifying with the restaurant owners where the music IS being played inside, and yet is still being objected to, as to exactly what they are being told by the authorities as the basis for complaint would be important to understanding what is motivating the complaints; and, more importantly, how to solve them.

Personally, I have neighbors very near who play outdoor music late in the evening at times, and it doesn't bother us or intrude at all, and our hearing is fine; and if I wanted to not hear the music at all, closing my doors would drown it out completely. We live right across from Lopez, where there is outdoor music at times at night; I cannot hear it unless I am outside, when I hear it faintly, although I can still hear the nightbirds singing at the lake; and when I do, I like the music rather than dead silence. It is hard for me to believe that the level of music I have heard at country club patio areas would be intrusive to even the nearest homes, so I wonder what the number of complaints actually is, which could possibly be learned by going to the meeting that was discussed (unfortunately, the Nov. 24 meeting mentioned in some of the posts is on a date when some of us will be away for Thanksgiving). We are not talking about loud rock bands, but usually karaoke singing or combo groups - not loud heavy metal-type music.

Yes, this is a retirement community, but that sort of begs the question. After all, retirement communities, especially of the type that TV is, are a new creation, and should be governed only by what can best serve the reasonable expectations of retirees of all ages and sentiments; and that means most of us are not going to be perfectly thrilled with everything, but we should come here willing to accept certain 'not ideal to us' things because of the overwhelming benefits we have from living here - and to me, the balance is far in favor of the benefit. Retirement should mean more, not less, freedom. We are retired; not done in. For many people retirement means freedom from the career years when their entire lives had to revolve around a work schedule - at last, the freedom to stay out late with friends, even on weeknights, if one chooses; and shouldn't mean being able to expect a 'shush'ed environment after 8 PM at night (just as we couldn't expect, or demand, that if we lived otherwhere than TV in retirement). I think it is a reasonable expectation that most people moved to TV because of the ability to socialize freely with others who moved here for the same reason. (After all, weren't we the sock-hop generations?) We aren't bedding down babies here. People who want and expect absolute peace and quiet should not, in my opinion, move to a retirement community; they should move to the country, and then drive in their car to a golf course to play.

The work of moving an entire music setup and re-setting it up inside, including the wear and tear on the equipment, is not practical to expect on a regular basis; and many customers will have up and left during such a long interruption in the music.

Plus, the CC's inside are restaurants, and many of them built their dance floors on the patio so that diners could converse while dining; and dancing could be done outside - after all, this is Florida, as we all knew when we moved here! Outdoor living and entertainment is a reasonable expectation for anyone who moved here.

I would say limits of 10 PM for outdoor music on weeknights, midnight for outdoor music on weekends would be reasonable - and whoever is bothered by it should close their windows, and get over it. And no limit on the cut-off time for indoor music (why should this be decided by anyone other than the business owner?)

I think that if these decisions, within parameters along this line, were left to the business owners, the 'problem' would gradually work itself out, as the people who do like night-life would gradually congregate at consensus places, and those businesses that are not getting the late-nighters would choose to close earlier, ie, let the market correct itself. For example, it might become the norm that a certain business is 'the place' to go on Monday night, another business the next, etc. That way the noise 'problem', if it is a problem as perceived by some people, might, at least, move from place to place on different nights.

Finally; hugs always help to figure out solutions at times like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr3x_RRJdd4

[NJblue]

The majority of the people moved to TV for what was here.We saw the lifestyle it was great and should be kept that way.

The strange thing is that this is probably the precise point that the neighbors to Havana are making. To my knowledge there has been no history of outdoor entertainment past 8 or 9 in the country clubs. Hence what is changing is not the residents sudden request for tranquility, but the recent addition of outdoor entertainment in the late evening. So, yeah, people came here, saw what it was like to live near a CC and decided to buy. Too bad their neighbors want to change the rules on them after they laid out their life's savings.

[dillywho]

Maybe I missed it, but where in the quoted/pasted ordinance does it say 8:00? Everything I read says "no later than 10 p.m.". Did I miss something? Where/who did the magic hour of 8 p.m. come from?

[ejp52]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Villages own the CC's and lease them?

[bluedog103]

Sounds to me like a few whining busybodies have way too much to say about how the rest of the community lives. I live out in the country in a farming area. Very often the city folk move out here and complain about the farmer across the road spreading manure. The farm was always there but the manure wasn't being applied when they looked at the property. Gets comical. There's a racetrack nearby. Folks buy in the winter then whine about the noise and dust when racing starts in the spring. Duh.
Folks, you and you alone are responsible for doing your homework. Country clubs in every place I've ever lived have outdoor patios where entertainment is provided in good weather. If you buy next to a pig farm, don't expect the pigs to change their behavior because of your poor judgement.

[NJblue]

Originally Posted by dillywho

Maybe I missed it, but where in the quoted/pasted ordinance does it say 8:00? Everything I read says "no later than 10 p.m.". Did I miss something? Where/who did the magic hour of 8 p.m. come from?

You're right, there is no magic hour of 8 PM. The law states that outdoor entertainment that is an annoyance is prohibited at all hours - except for downtown areas where it can be until 10 PM.

Radios, televisions, musical instruments and similar devices, and amplified human voice. Playing or permitting the playing of any radio, television, musical instrument or similar device, whether amplified or not amplified, or amplifying the human voice in such a manner or with such volume as to annoy or disturb the quiet, comfort and repose of a reasonable person in any type of residence or place of business; provided, however, this prohibition shall not apply to regularly scheduled outdoor entertainment activities in the downtown or urban areas within developments of regional impact, so long as such events terminate not later than 10:00 p.m.

[dillywho]

So then what about Big City, etc. They are downtown.

[NJblue]

I have no idea what restriction they want to or are trying to impose downtown. However, as vociferous as I have been in defending the neighbors complaining about outdoor music at a CC, I am dead against any restrictions against music inside in a townsquare location. This is what the townsquares were set up to accomodate and businesses should be free to entertain there.

[KathieI]

Tonight the karaoke singers at Havana were keeping the music to a very low level and STILL the same person called 2 times to management to complain...??? This was around 8:30pm??? I think these people are getting a kick out of getting the police force out after us for no reason whatsoever when they should be doing their jobs on important matters. This is definitely a joke. The decibel level tonight, I saw for myself, was way below what is mandated by the codes.

If we let this continue, we stand the chance that the minority will convince the powers that be that ANY entertainment should not be outside at all and definitely not after 8:30 pm.... I agree with Whalen who started this thread, it isn't easy to move the equipment and people inside and why should we if we are complying with the codes. This whole thread is very enlightening and its obvious that the majority seem to want the music and are not disturbed by the noise.

[NJblue]

Originally Posted by sschuler1

I also understand your stand about noise after a reasonable hour, but I have to agree with most people that 10 pm is a reasonable time for ceasation of loud noise. When we were choosing a lot to purchase for our home we drove around the neighborhood to check noise levels. We came past at different times of the day to see all the various activities and traffic levels that occured near our location of choice. We were more concerned about early morning noise, and wanted to make sure that we were not near a pickleball court. Since we are not morning people that was our main concern, and we made sure that we bought in the right area. The maps that are available are very detailed about what is going to be built in the future, so we feel very secure knowing that no other rec center is going to be built close to us. But if one was built near us in the future, do you think they could play their pickleball inside until around 11 am? I would sure appreciate that!
:

Yes, most people do due diligence when they buy. However, when the neighbors to Havana were buying their homes, Havana was not yet in operation. If they had checked other CCs in TV they would have seen that they typically close up at around 8:30 or 9 at night. So, had you done your due diligence and were concerned about loud music at night, you would have felt comfortable buying near Havana, only to be sorely disappointed later.

[Donna]

I live very close to the Havana CC..I must admit there are times (infrequently) the music is a bit loud..I enjoy the music, and find it entertaining..

I knew when I bought near a CC this was inevitable..I agree with a reasonable curfew, but certainly NOT 8:00.That is redundant!!!

[NJblue]

This whole thread is very enlightening and its obvious that the majority seem to want the music and are not disturbed by the noise.

How can you tell if they are disturbed by the noise? They don't live on Aberdeen Run. There have been anecdotes from people who live "near" the polo grounds or Nancy Lopez or Mallory, but we don't know how near. We also don't know at what hours the music was being played or how frequently.