[rustyp]

Originally Posted by Maker

The medical world says for having a likely survival, the accepted maximum time delay before beginning CPR is 4 minutes. Beyond that, the chances go from low, to extremely rare plus having serious long term injury.
The numbers I have seen shows it is at least 6 minutes, and usually longer.

So having a community of people trained in CPR, all heading your way to fill the gap in time before the paramedics arrive, is going to make outcomes better. No question.
Having an AED also aids in monitoring the CPR process and issues voice directions to improve technique (rate and compression). It can also administer a shock if needed.

Now the paramedics arrive. I would welcome the paramedics to concentrate on doing advanced life support - administering drugs, oxygen, assessing for other treatments they can provide... instead of doing CPR themselves. Performing CPR is very tiring. Having many to share the work is the best way.

The overall goal is to increase the odds of survival, with the lowest amount of complications possible. The AED program does that.

Are you supporting my point that the real benefit would be trained CPR neighbors not an AED device ?

I'm having a hard time believing that a neighborhood AED has a high probability of actual shock administered within a four minute window. Put a time estimate on these events prior to administration:

- Realization that the event is serious enough that one should place the 911 call
- Retrieving a phone and placing the call
- Relaying the information to the 911 operator
- 911 operator relays info to paramedics
- Paramedic triggers phone calls to trained AED neighbors.
- AED trained neighbors digest info
- AED trained neighbor gather personal belongings - keys, phone, hat, jacket, etc.
- AED trained neighbor leaves house (by foot / golf cart ?) and fetches AED
- AED trained neighbor goes from AED station to the house of victim
- AED trained neighbor communicates apron arrival at the house about situation
- AED trained neighbor hooks up device
- AED device does self diagnosis
- AED button is pushed

Is it possible all this in 4 minutes from the event start - maybe under ideal conditions
What percentage of time will all these steps occur in a private home situation (not the town square, rec center, etc) within the four minute window - my opinion very low percentage.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by rustyp

In a community with a 6 minute response time by full time paramedics a neighborhood CPR training initiative would be much more beneficial than AED implementation. By the time a neighbor runs to retrieve the AED the paramedics are there. That time was better spent administering CPR.

If you read the other AED thread, you would know that protocol dictates that the initial responder starts CPR (if needed) and the SECOND volunteer responder gets the AED...

You just don't leave the person to die and wander off to fetch the AED...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

Our village sent out an email suggesting what dollar amount was being requested per residence . There was a drop off box where a check could be placed. All was private. No one knew what percent actually participated or for that matter a need to know. We have the program and maintenance funds are solicited the same way.

Personally I think going door to door asking is intimidating.

When we first were moving in, someone stopped by and dropped off the information.. No pressure to give at that time.

Once I read thru the info, I decided it was a valuable program and I sent in a check...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

Our village sent out an email suggesting what dollar amount was being requested per residence . There was a drop off box where a check could be placed. All was private. No one knew what percent actually participated or for that matter a need to know. We have the program and maintenance funds are solicited the same way.

Personally I think going door to door asking is intimidating.

Unfortunately, that only works if they have everyone's email...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by talonip

Summary of Requirements
No legislation is currently in place for Florida. Anyone that obtains an Automated External Defibrillator (AED) is required to complete a course in cardiopulmonary resuscitation, successfully complete basic first aid training, and demonstrate proficient use of an AED.

Ok so do we have people qualified? What if we do and they are out for dinner at sumter landing or up north. Then what?
Does somebody have to be on call 24 hours?

It's not just "one or two" people in the neighborhood...

And if no one is available, unfortunately that means no one is available. There is no "on call"...

The same with EMTs. If they're available, they'll show up quickly. If they're already responding to other calls, you're gonna' have to wait a bit longer...

It's not meant to replace the EMTs. It there to be an adjunct, to "assist" the EMTs...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by Velvet

Have they asked for permission from the people involved “to post the facts”? If they have and the majority agreed, I’m for it. Otherwise, I see it as invasion of privacy. It is not that I haven’t paid for AEDs myself or that I don’t support the efforts of people who volunteer, I fully appreciate that. What I don’t like is the lack of sensitivity about trying to raise funds. It is natural to turn on someone who is trying to push you.

What "privacy" was invaded? Did they post names? If not, your post is invalid...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Are you supporting my point that the real benefit would be trained CPR neighbors not an AED device ?

I'm having a hard time believing that a neighborhood AED has a high probability of actual shock administered within a four minute window. Put a time estimate on these events prior to administration:

- Realization that the event is serious enough that one should place the 911 call
- Retrieving a phone and placing the call
- Relaying the information to the 911 operator
- 911 operator relays info to paramedics
- Paramedic triggers phone calls to trained AED neighbors.
- AED trained neighbors digest info
- AED trained neighbor gather personal belongings - keys, phone, hat, jacket, etc.
- AED trained neighbor leaves house (by foot / golf cart ?) and fetches AED
- AED trained neighbor goes from AED station to the house of victim
- AED trained neighbor communicates apron arrival at the house about situation
- AED trained neighbor hooks up device
- AED device does self diagnosis
- AED button is pushed

Is it possible all this in 4 minutes from the event start - maybe under ideal conditions
What percentage of time will all these steps occur in a private home situation (not the town square, rec center, etc) within the four minute window - my opinion very low percentage.

You timeline is completely wrong...

The correct sequence of events has been explained, multiple times...

[rustyp]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

You timeline is completely wrong...

The correct sequence of events has been explained, multiple times...

OK give me actual fact based data of what the time is from the initial event to the actual shock reaching the victim's heart is in a voluntary neighborhood AED situation. - emphasis real data!

[neilbcox]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Are you supporting my point that the real benefit would be trained CPR neighbors not an AED device ?

I'm having a hard time believing that a neighborhood AED has a high probability of actual shock administered within a four minute window. Put a time estimate on these events prior to administration:

- Realization that the event is serious enough that one should place the 911 call
- Retrieving a phone and placing the call
- Relaying the information to the 911 operator
- 911 operator relays info to paramedics
- Paramedic triggers phone calls to trained AED neighbors.
- AED trained neighbors digest info
- AED trained neighbor gather personal belongings - keys, phone, hat, jacket, etc.
- AED trained neighbor leaves house (by foot / golf cart ?) and fetches AED
- AED trained neighbor goes from AED station to the house of victim
- AED trained neighbor communicates apron arrival at the house about situation
- AED trained neighbor hooks up device
- AED device does self diagnosis
- AED button is pushed

Is it possible all this in 4 minutes from the event start - maybe under ideal conditions
What percentage of time will all these steps occur in a private home situation (not the town square, rec center, etc) within the four minute window - my opinion very low percentage.

This is so far from the truth it is Truly unbelievable! You have no idea what the process is!! Go do your homework before you try to talk like an expert!

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by rustyp

OK give me actual fact based data of what the time is from the initial event to the actual shock reaching the victim's heart is in a voluntary neighborhood AED situation. - emphasis real data!

Well, to start, the very first thing a responder does is rush to the home and start CPR (if needed)... A point you were unaware of (or conveniently ignored...). Since that has been explained, multiple times, I'm going with "option B"...

That alone proves your entire premise wrong...

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Unfortunately, that only works if they have everyone's email...

Well fortunately our village social organization did have the emails….thats how the coordinator decimates information.
The letter you mentioned seemed to work as well.

[neilbcox]

Originally Posted by neilbcox

This is so far from the truth it is Truly unbelievable! You have no idea what the process is!! Go do your homework before you try to talk like an expert!

You are right Tom!

Another fact is the 911 dispatchers sends alerts to any registered responder within 1/2 mile of the downed person at the exact time they notify the first responders. All responders immediately go to the provided address on a map FIRST and start CPR. Other responders who responded will go pick up the AED unit and return immediately to the patient. In our Village it is a goal to arrive each cardiac arrest within 3 minutes. The assist limit is NOT 4 minutes. Now go do more homework!

[Velvet]

Originally Posted by Bogie Shooter

Well fortunately our village social organization did have the emails….thats how the coordinator decimates information.
The letter you mentioned seemed to work as well.

Yes, and we have a local directory, everyones’ phone numbers, emails, contacts. It’s voluntary and so far no one has selected not to be in it. The way we raised funds for AEDs was one EMS person (my direct neighbor) demonstrated the entire process in an emergency at the rec center. This was our neighborhood social and no one didn’t pay their share although some people offered to pay twice as much since they had 2 people living at their house. Which makes sense because the likely hood of someone needing it depends on how many people in the home.

[rustyp]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Are you supporting my point that the real benefit would be trained CPR neighbors not an AED device ?

I'm having a hard time believing that a neighborhood AED has a high probability of actual shock administered within a four minute window. Put a time estimate on these events prior to administration:

- Realization that the event is serious enough that one should place the 911 call
- Retrieving a phone and placing the call
- Relaying the information to the 911 operator
- 911 operator relays info to paramedics
- Paramedic triggers phone calls to trained AED neighbors.
- AED trained neighbors digest info
- AED trained neighbor gather personal belongings - keys, phone, hat, jacket, etc.
- AED trained neighbor leaves house (by foot / golf cart ?) and fetches AED
- AED trained neighbor goes from AED station to the house of victim
- AED trained neighbor communicates apron arrival at the house about situation
- AED trained neighbor hooks up device
- AED device does self diagnosis
- AED button is pushed

Is it possible all this in 4 minutes from the event start - maybe under ideal conditions
What percentage of time will all these steps occur in a private home situation (not the town square, rec center, etc) within the four minute window - my opinion very low percentage.

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Well, to start, the very first thing a responder does is rush to the home and start CPR (if needed)... A point you were unaware of (or conveniently ignored...). Since that has been explained, multiple times, I'm going with "option B"...

That alone proves your entire premise wrong...

You just added an extra step between 6 and 7.You can't retrieve the AED if you are doing CPR. Now you are going to say another volunteer is getting the AED. We will need to coordinate golf, pickle ball, rec center classes . etc. to make sure we have the coverage.

Change add or delete the steps. The point was we have a 6 minute response time here in TV by paramedics. I also stated the payback would be CPR training. It's a very small chance you will beat the paramedics to the AED button push step.

My opinion (which allowed until you can produce the time data I requested) is
- The AED in a TV volunteer situation is more a placebo than a life saver. It's not likely to be used but has to be maintained.
- Spend your efforts getting neighbors CPR trained. That's where 99% of the payback will come from.

I wish people would learn to read - go back - reread! The list was intended for the reader to assign time to steps to illustrate how likely or unlikely neighbors would beat paramedics in TV to the AED - not CPR.

[Bill14564]

Originally Posted by rustyp

Are you supporting my point that the real benefit would be trained CPR neighbors not an AED device ?

I'm having a hard time believing that a neighborhood AED has a high probability of actual shock administered within a four minute window. Put a time estimate on these events prior to administration:

- Realization that the event is serious enough that one should place the 911 call
- Retrieving a phone and placing the call
- Relaying the information to the 911 operator
- 911 operator relays info to paramedics
- Paramedic triggers phone calls to trained AED neighbors.
- AED trained neighbors digest info
- AED trained neighbor gather personal belongings - keys, phone, hat, jacket, etc.
- AED trained neighbor leaves house (by foot / golf cart ?) and fetches AED
- AED trained neighbor goes from AED station to the house of victim
- AED trained neighbor communicates apron arrival at the house about situation
- AED trained neighbor hooks up device
- AED device does self diagnosis
- AED button is pushed

Is it possible all this in 4 minutes from the event start - maybe under ideal conditions
What percentage of time will all these steps occur in a private home situation (not the town square, rec center, etc) within the four minute window - my opinion very low percentage.

Your opinion is your opinion but it would be better to hear statistics from those involved with the program.

Some problems I see with your steps:
- Your step 5 is probably performed by the 911 operator and over an automated system, not a telephone
- Steps 6 and 7 are essentially instantaneous. The volunteer responders are not going to work through a long checklist in their head to digest the information and prepare to leave the house, they are likely to receive the alert and head out the door
- As of step 7, there are three efforts happening simultaneously: EMT response, CPR response, and AED response.
- There is no doubt in my mind that the CPR response can reach my neighbors faster than the EMT, it's a simple matter of distance
- We don't have AEDs so I can't guess how conveniently located they may be or how much time would be needed to find the closest unit (your steps 8 & 9)
- Step 10 is again almost instantaneous

Just because you can identify multiple steps doesn't mean the steps take any meaningful time to execute. I imagine I could describe the steps required to take a breath, something that can happen in less than a second, in enough detail that you couldn't hold your breath while reading all of them. Several of the steps listed take less than two seconds and take longer to read than to execute.

But again, it would be nice to get statistics from those with actual experience.