[rubicon]

Like all government spending the cost of construction and operation costs will be understated to get the issue passed.

Like all amenities here there is going to be a scramble for use and one has to ask when will it stop? How many golf courses can we maintain before costs exceed benefit. Despite agreements that amenities fees can't be raised except for a 3% inflation factor the reality is that when push comes to shove....and it will our expenses here are going to go sky high in conjunction with the continuing depletion of our retirement savings.

Now I am sure someone is going to come forward with an accounting scenario to refute this. However that what government's CBO does on a daily basis and one has to ask, "How's that working out for you"?

Some residents north of 466 claim it is their business coming from the amenities lawsuit and has nothing to do with those south of 466.

However as time passes we find that irresponsible government (AAC) spending falls on all taxpayers ( residents) via increases in their taxes (amenity fees)

Given inflation wear and tear etc residents will have a big lift just maintaining our present facilities.

Again the Developer jettisoned the indoor pool because it was too expensive to maintain. If a multi-billionaire sees this as a liability rather than an asset then how does the AAC believe it should proceed with this albatross?

[Bogie Shooter]

Originally Posted by Greg Nelson

Newbee here! With these freezing temps I'm not going to put on my wet suit to do water aerobics. Del Webb's got a nice indoor pool, and they have whirlpools, steam rooms and saunas ...can't find them here! But even Del Webb, which we stayed at, their indoor pool was not overcrowded, BUT!! they claim to be only a third done with their development!

Do they have a blog??

[Mudder]

The indoor pool is long gone. It is under the Speciality Care Center I believe.

[Love2Swim]

Originally Posted by rubicon

...

Again the Developer jettisoned the indoor pool because it was too expensive to maintain. If a multi-billionaire sees this as a liability rather than an asset then how does the AAC believe it should proceed with this albatross?

I question if that is really the reason they did away with the indoor pool. Why would an indoor pool be more expensive to maintain than any other pool? Its all about maintaining the level of chemicals and keeping the pumps and filters running. If anything it would be easier. The pumps and filters are inside in a temperature controlled environment and not subject to the temperature extremes that the outdoor pools encounter.

Is it possible they had a use for the space that the indoor pool occupied that would generate more income?

[graciegirl]

[quote=Love2Swim;979418]I question if that is really the reason they did away with the indoor pool. Why would an indoor pool be more expensive to maintain than any other pool? Its all about maintaining the level of chemicals and keeping the pumps and filters running. If anything it would be easier. The pumps and filters are inside in a temperature controlled environment and not subject to the temperature extremes that the outdoor pools encounter.

Is it possible they had a use for the space that the indoor pool occupied that would generate more income?
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Or is it possible they discovered problems with maintenance that were difficult? The developers seem to have learned as they went along and improved things. Separating and widening cart paths. Building more pools, and rec centers. And they eliminated some things that weren't working well, perhaps?

http://ezinearticles.com/?Curing-Ind...ems&id=3413145

http://aquamagazine.com/content/post...-Problems.aspx

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/swim...r-quality.html

Indoor Swimming Pools Create Unique Health Problems

[kcrazorbackfan]

[quote=graciegirl;979420]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

I question if that is really the reason they did away with the indoor pool. Why would an indoor pool be more expensive to maintain than any other pool? Its all about maintaining the level of chemicals and keeping the pumps and filters running. If anything it would be easier. The pumps and filters are inside in a temperature controlled environment and not subject to the temperature extremes that the outdoor pools encounter.

Is it possible they had a use for the space that the indoor pool occupied that would generate more income?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or is it possible they discovered problems with maintenance that were difficult? The developers seem to have learned as they went along and improved things. Separating and widening cart paths. Building more pools, and rec centers. And they eliminated some things that weren't working well, perhaps?

Curing Indoor Pool Water Problems

Indoor Pools, Potential Problems?

CDC - Chemical Irritants (Chloramines) & Indoor Pool Air Quality - Healthy Swimming & Recreational Water - Healthy Water

Indoor Swimming Pools Create Unique Health Problems

Great points, GracieGirl.

Supporters of this idea, THIS. IS. FLORIDA. I could see it if you were in any other state north of the Gulf Coast, but seriously? You want to pay additional fees to support an indoor pool when you live in "The Sunshine State"? How about those of us that play golf in no matter what kind of weather? Can we call for an indoor course with multiple screens so we can play in perfect conditions? Again, THIS. IS. FLORIDA.

[angiefox10]

I would probably never use an indoor pool... Heck.. I hardly use the outdoor pools. I don't play tennis nor do I play softball.. All are items that take money to maintain. Who else has a polo field in their community??? And yet, it is a sorce os pride for The Villages.

I've heard that the pools in The Villages are salt water... I don't know if that's true... If so, it would dispel the previous posts regarding indoor chlorine pools.

Without knowing the costs to the residents, I'm not sure how anyone can say yes or no.

I'm always happy to see when a new item is added to our community... The diversity in sports and activities is the reason we moved here. An indoor pool would be one more and I approve.

We are an older community and getting older. We have many people who could use greatly use an indoor pool.


If, as some have suggested it's not enough for the amount of people who will use. That just tells me... we NEED it, and we NEED more than one!

Why would I want to take something away from anyone just because I don't use it?

[billethkid]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

I question if that is really the reason they did away with the indoor pool. Why would an indoor pool be more expensive to maintain than any other pool? Its all about maintaining the level of chemicals and keeping the pumps and filters running. If anything it would be easier. The pumps and filters are inside in a temperature controlled environment and not subject to the temperature extremes that the outdoor pools encounter.

Is it possible they had a use for the space that the indoor pool occupied that would generate more income?

While I do not know for sure I suspect the motorized equipment will be kept outside for reasons of maintenance accessibility and noise. The pool will be generating a brackish ambiance that will affect all the structures interior over time. And the sun will affect the structures exterior. Both issues a function of enclosure.

Are the benefits being sought to be able to swim during the cold seasn here in FL? Which means a facility to accomodate the time period of maybe one to three months per year? We have a pool and are still using it yet this month (December). Our experience over 10 years is we choose to not use it in January and February as those are usually the months with many cold days. I say choose because if we elected to run the pool heating system we can use the pool in January and February as well.

So maybe we could hear what the supporters are presenting as the basis for needing an enclosed pool.

Also there is no mystery to the operating costs of an enclosed facility as there are many in operation to learn from. There are far too many uninformed statements of how simple and how inexpensive an enclosed swimming facility will be when they in fact have no idea at allthe reality of operating structure and $$$ short and long term....my two cents.

I am not against an enclosed pool facility. I am just not for one. Especially without having seen the cost of operations and potential long term affect of raising amenity fees to accomodate the annual cost. And of course as a resident I have no problem accepting any proposal where all the future costs are born by the users!

[Love2Swim]

Originally Posted by angiefox10

I would probably never use an indoor pool... Heck.. I hardly use the outdoor pools. I don't play tennis nor do I play softball.. All are items that take money to maintain. Who else has a polo field in their community??? And yet, it is a sorce os pride for The Villages.

I've heard that the pools in The Villages are salt water... I don't know if that's true... If so, it would dispel the previous posts regarding indoor chlorine pools.

Without knowing the costs to the residents, I'm not sure how anyone can say yes or no.

I'm always happy to see when a new item is added to our community... The diversity in sports and activities is the reason we moved here. An indoor pool would be one more and I approve.

We are an older community and getting older. We have many people who could use greatly use an indoor pool.


If, as some have suggested it's not enough for the amount of people who will use. That just tells me... we NEED it, and we NEED more than one!

Why would I want to take something away from anyone just because I don't use it?

Thank you for your common sense. I suspect those who are not in favor are not even swimmers. I don't have a dog yet I don't begrudge funds being spent on a dog park for those that do. I don't play softball and have never been to a polo match, but as you say, those things add to our community, make it attractive to buyers, and help keep our property values up. An indoor pool is a no brainer. In the summer the outside pool water is over 90 degrees, and with no shade, its like trying to get an aerobic workout in a hot tub. Its a potential source of heat stroke and there are many articles about danger to the elderly.

As the articles that Gracie posted attest, many problems associated with indoor pools are related to poor construction and design. An indoor pool that is constructed with a good design, with the latest water purification systems and air transfer mechanisms, along with routine maintenance, will discourage any air and water quality problems and keep the pool healthy.

As far as the costs of building and maintaining, none of us are experts. Everything here is speculation and everyone has their own opinion. Hopefully the powers that be will do their homework and make a sensible decision, looking at the needs of ALL the residents.

[njbchbum]

Originally Posted by billethkid

snipped

So maybe we could hear what the supporters are presenting as the basis for needing an enclosed pool.

snipped

As is frequently mentioned to me - At our age and place in life, we are way beyond need and are basically only involved in want.

[billethkid]

As we look at the developers ability to plan and develop appropriate facilities to accomodate a certain number of villages with a certain number if villages....they have obviously concluded how many pools would be required to provide adequate access for a given population.

As a result there are many, many pools provided for each village or cluster of villages.

Is it being proposed that one enclosed pool will be sufficient to accomodate all who would want to have access to an indoor pool? Then there would be the discussion of where in the almost 40 square miles to put it.....and that certainly will not make for everybody being happy about how far away it might be.

I think there was a lot more to the developers decision to not pusrsue enclosed pools than many would like to hear. As far as liability for heat stroke and the like for water to warm. It is also known the developer has some of the very best legal council and access to thousands of like scenarios around the USA and they do not do much of anything that exposes them to additional risk...hence they continue with open pools for good reason(s) and not enclosed ones.

I find the subject very interesting and an exercise in watching the cost and legal justification anaysis and results.

I say build as many indoor pools as the user base can afford to support!

[sunnyatlast]

Originally Posted by njbchbum

How much would you be willing to pay for a premium membership to such a facility? Am just wondering what the indoor pool proponents think that amenity would be worth to them - since it would not be right to increase the amenity fee of those who do not want/need to use such a facility?

Regarding "it would not be right to increase the amenity fee of those who do no want/need to use such a facility", what about the tens of thousands of people here who do not play golf and do not use the executive golf courses?? A friend who's a TV sales rep told me in conversation (not sales pitch) that only 40% of TV residents are golfers (and undoubtedly, a good share of them play only occasionally, if at all).

I don't see non-golfers pitching a fit and worrying about an amenities fee increase--which by the way is capped by being tied to the consumer price index anyway--as executive courses are added.

And if people think an indoor pool is expensive to operate and maintain, try working on a budget for a golf course as I have! An 18-hole course takes at least $500,000 a year to operate/maintain.

As a quick, readable example of golf course operating costs, here is a link to the Sebring, FL (population 10,000) city golf course budget showing total operating expense of $482,055 for this year, on page 91. These are the kind of expenses thousands of non-golfers are paying for here, thru their amenities fees.

Golf course operating costs on page 91:
https://sebring.govoffice2.com/verti..._2013-2014.pdf

And I think pool users should pay a membership fee for an indoor one if a new indoor aquatics facility that meets all swimming villagers' aquatic needs could be built. Covering or enclosing and retrofitting the El Santiago neighborhood pool and its mechanical systems does not seem like a good idea due to its size and lack of lap swimming length and width. And the neighborhood residents want their pool to remain and be used as intended!

[Mudder]

To maintain an indoor pool with decent air quality is very tricky and a great expense.
Yesterday afternoon at about 4 PM I went swimming at Lake Miona sports pool, air was chilly, pool water was perfect for lap swimming. Yes, getting out was a bit chilly but I quickly go to locker room and take a hot shower. Perfect.
When we first moved to Florida about 20 years ago we were appalled that there were no indoor tennis courts, then we quickly figured it all out. The few days a year when the courts are wet and we can't play we use those days as body recovery days.
There is a reason MVP didn't include an indoor pool at their new facility near Brownwood. Cost to operate vs membership willingness to pay.
I am a lap swimmer, but if I can't swim a few days a year I just let it go. Same with tennis or any other outdoor sport, it will not kill you if you miss a few days. Relax.

[Challenger]

Originally Posted by Mudder

To maintain an indoor pool with decent air quality is very tricky and a great expense.
Yesterday afternoon at about 4 PM I went swimming at Lake Miona sports pool, air was chilly, pool water was perfect for lap swimming. Yes, getting out was a bit chilly but I quickly go to locker room and take a hot shower. Perfect.
When we first moved to Florida about 20 years ago we were appalled that there were no indoor tennis courts, then we quickly figured it all out. The few days a year when the courts are wet and we can't play we use those days as body recovery days.
There is a reason MVP didn't include an indoor pool at their new facility near Brownwood. Cost to operate vs membership willingness to pay.
I am a lap swimmer, but if I can't swim a few days a year I just let it go. Same with tennis or any other outdoor sport, it will not kill you if you miss a few days. Relax.

Your concept is far too logical for this forum

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Love2Swim

I question if that is really the reason they did away with the indoor pool. Why would an indoor pool be more expensive to maintain than any other pool? Its all about maintaining the level of chemicals and keeping the pumps and filters running. If anything it would be easier. The pumps and filters are inside in a temperature controlled environment and not subject to the temperature extremes that the outdoor pools encounter.

Is it possible they had a use for the space that the indoor pool occupied that would generate more income?

Hi Love2Swim: The Developer without notice to members of the Wellness Center sold the building including the swimming pool and relocated the Wellness Center to the Sales Office in Spanish Springs where it was eventually sold to MVP.

When members found out that the Wellness Center was moving they became upset, especially those who utilized the indoor pool. I don't know how many actually used the pool but some 200 people signed a petition to have the Developer retain the pool for their use. One of the arguments he advanced was the outrageous cost to maintain and heat the pool.

heating a pool is expensive and the reason why some village residents invested in solar panels.