[tuccillo]

There are actually two different chemistries in use by Tesla. Tesla recommends charging their NMC batteries to 80-90% on a regular basis and 100% only for long trips. Tesla recommends charging their LFP batteries to 100% routinely. I believe the 4680s are NMC. Problems with production at scale has limited their availability. Apparently, nearly 50% of Tesla batteries, on a world-wide basis, are LFP. I believe most of the US Teslas are using NMC.

Originally Posted by MorTech

The sweet spot for rapid charging with minimal cell degradation in lithium chemistry is between 25%-75%...The middle of the cell. The key is to wick heat away from the cell as rapidly as possible. The new tabless 4680 cell is designed to do just that.

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Okay, I will bite, where are you going (200 to 250 mile range) if the power is out? Gas stations can't pump or charge you, grocery stores can't run the cash registers, banks are definitely not going to be open, etc.

So, let's accept that the situation occurs and both the EV and an ICE are full. The EV (current) has a 200 to 300 mile capacity, the ICE has a 400 mile capacity.

If you are going up north, are we assuming there is NO power for 200 miles north of here? That would be a pretty serious catastrophe.

52 weeks of 200 miles of driving comes out to 10K per year. That is more than I drive now without a power outage. My point here being I except 200 to 400 miles range is more than most people will need for a week without power.

Also, GM has already announced a 400 mile range (I think for next year). Others are doing the same.

MOST of the arguments I hear/read are saying why EVs won't work now. And I completely agree, if tomorrow we all woke up and found an EV had magically replaced our ICE vehicles, we would be in a world of hurts with circuit breakers popping on all the transmission grids. But that is not going to happen. It is not physically possible to replace 300 million ICE vehicles in even a decade. Even in 3 decades would be a push, that is 10 million cars a year for 30 years. We currently sell about 17 million cars and trucks per year. Converting all those factories to EV is going to take time, so some percentage of that 17 million will become EVs, but certainly not all any time soon. So, we have at least 30 years, probably more, to transition. Meaning improve infrastructure, improve battery technology, convert factories, etc, etc, etc. A lot of work.

Also, I really liked a comment by Jay Leno recently. He expects people to keep their ICE vehicles around for a long time - for those limited cases where the EV is just not appropriate. But the benefits of driving an EV all the other times (two miles to Publix from my house) far out weigh the negatives. So, he expects most people will have one of each for a while until we can transition.

I don’t think Charlotte or Lee counties will have power for a while, sadly. Many people won’t be able to return home. In that situation, I’ll take ICE every time.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

Okay, I will bite, where are you going (200 to 250 mile range) if the power is out? Gas stations can't pump or charge you, grocery stores can't run the cash registers, banks are definitely not going to be open, etc.

Many, if not most of those places have back up generators... Especially gas stations...

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Aces4

I don’t think Charlotte or Lee counties will have power for a while, sadly. Many people won’t be able to return home. In that situation, I’ll take ICE every time.

I understand completely, and we - you and I - have been around this tree many times. EVs are not for you - yet. And that is fine. I know I can come across and trying to convert people, but I am not, I am simply putting my opinion out there, and hoping to hear from people like you that disagree with me.

If no one disagrees with me on a subject it literally scares the bejeezus out of me.

Some will make the change some won't - that is why we have more than one product. Everyone gets to vote with their dollars.

[Jimbob the Newbie]

Originally Posted by MartinSE

I understand completely, and we - you and I - have been around this tree many times. EVs are not for you - yet. And that is fine. I know I can come across and trying to convert people, but I am not, I am simply putting my opinion out there, and hoping to hear from people like you that disagree with me.

If no one disagrees with me on a subject it literally scares the bejeezus out of me.

Some will make the change some won't - that is why we have more than one product. Everyone gets to vote with their dollars.

There you go again, making sense and delivering a concise and cogent argument. How dare you???

[Aces4]

Originally Posted by Jimbob the Newbie

There you go again, making sense and delivering a concise and cogent argument. How dare you???

Argument? I thought we were having a discussion. Hmmm… I guess it depends on your mindset.

[Bay Kid]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Many, if not most of those places have back up generators... Especially gas stations...

My Avalon has a range well over 500 miles averaging 50 MPG. I should find gas sooner or later before empty. Then off for another 500+ miles.

[Indy-Guy]

Why now is not the time to buy an electric vehicle. Click on video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VX8eH1pEO6I

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by Bay Kid

My Avalon has a range well over 500 miles averaging 50 MPG. I should find gas sooner or later before empty. Then off for another 500+ miles.

Yes, and I had twin side tanks on a pickup with we lived in the country and so, could go around 1,000 miles even at very poor gas mileage. It doesn't mean I would drive for 8 hours straight without a break, even though I could.

[MartinSE]

I think the point of electric today is what is most of the driving you do - do you drive 500 miles every day? Week? Month? What is your average trip? Doing a little looking the number varies - the average daily driving in the US is 35 miles per day.

Motor Trend did an excellent article comparing (even to the point of establishing average flow rate for the gas pumps vs charger rates for EVs) ICE vs EV and one section covers time to drive 1,000 miles.

To summarize:

ICE would take around 14.7 hours (16.5 for a BMW i3 because of its small tank requiring 12 stops.)

EV average over 52 available models is 15.3 hours for EV. The Mini Cooper SE taking 23.5 hours because of its very low top speed.

The comparison between EV and ICE on a 1,000 mile trip is about 1 hour difference depending of particular vehicle charge/pump rate, etc. (And of course driving style - ahem)

EV vs. Gas: Is 1,000 Miles LTS the Metric of the Future?

Cars are a very emotional subject - people form strong attachments to their cars, binding and even feeling the car reflects their "persona". Having a wide range of choices to fit everyones desires is one of the hurdles EVs have to overcome. Currently in the US there are over 50 models on sale to choose from. Personally, I would say those fall into 3 actually different models (ahem) so, that is certainly a real limitation. But, next year that number is going to explode (Ford F150 will be an EV even) as mainstream companies release many new models.

Personally I think the age of personal cars ownership is rapidly coming to an end. Paying $30K to $50K (I expect here in TV that number is higher) for a new car comes out to around $300/month (not including maintenance and insurance) over 10 years to have a vehicle sit in a garage/driveway 90% or more of the time. (Yes, you recover some of that cost when you sell or trade it - I will address that later - at recovering 50% of the initial cost - ahem, which is not likely for a 10 year old car. I drive an 11 year old Jaguar XF it sold for around $75K new, it will sell in excellent condition today for around $6K to $7K. Your recovery will vary.

What I see coming is time share vehicles.

A fleet of vehicles will operate in an area with full self driving and charging stations. When you want to go someplace you "summons" a car using you phone and within 5 to 10 minutes it arrives at your house. Takes you where you want to go, drops you off and leaves. Then when. you are ready to go someplace else (or home) you summons another ride. Cost will be based on usage with many "plans" to choose from - per ride, per mile, per month or per year. I expect the cost initially to be just "competitive - say around $150/mth for unlimited mileage, but that would cover insurance and maintenance, and reflect to cost of your vehicle recovered when you sell or trade it in after 10 years. Long range travel would likely be similar to one way car rental - higher per mile, but still less than owning and paying for fuel.

Look at the bright side, that garage you paid for can then be used for other things, boats, shops, sitting rooms, etc... or you could keep your favorite ICE parked in there for when you just feel like driving it.

[Dr Winston O Boogie jr]

Originally Posted by biker1

You would need equipment to compress the natural gas. Equipment to do this has been available for about 10 years but I don't see wide spread adoption. The decision that EVs are the future has already been made by virtually every car maker.

All of the gas company’s vehicles run on natural gas. Even if we couldn’t have hookups in our homes it would still be a simple thing to make it available at gas stations. It would certainly be easier than creating charging stations everywhere.
What I kep thinking about is how the power grid would handle so many electric vehicles, how much pollution is caused creating electricity, building batteries and mining lithium. I also understand that the supply of lithium is getting low.
And then there’s the fact that most fluorocarbon pollution comes from cargo ships. Changing all of cars to electric won’t make a dent in the overall amount of gasses released into the atmosphere.

[retiredguy123]

Timeshare vehicles? I think you need a different name. It may turn off a lot of people who got ripped off buying a condo timeshare.

[tuccillo]

A few thoughts:

1) It is easier to install EV charging stations at existing gas stations than some form of natural gas (LNG or CNG). All existing gas stations have power already in place. Not all existing gas stations have natural gas.

2) There is little work being done on natural gas powered passenger cars, either LNG or CNG, when compared to EVs. Yes, a few models exist but there is little infrastructure to support them. It does make sense for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to the same facility. It is the same issue as with hydrogen powered fuel cells in passenger cars. Hydrogen powered fuel cells certainly makes sense for commercial vehicles leaving from and returning to the same facility, if the cost of hydrogen comes down.

3) There is a substantial amount of money committed to building battery factories in the US. Most automakers have already committed to building only EVs by 2030 or 2035. A large amount of money has already been spent by Tesla on their Supercharger stations and EA on their DC fast chargers. The Federal Government is throwing a lot of money at the installation of EV charging stations. The die is cast.

4) With regard to CO2 emissions, transportation accounts for about 20% of global CO2 emissions. About half of that 20% is from cars and busses.

Originally Posted by Dr Winston O Boogie jr

All of the gas company’s vehicles run on natural gas. Even if we couldn’t have hookups in our homes it would still be a simple thing to make it available at gas stations. It would certainly be easier than creating charging stations everywhere.
What I kep thinking about is how the power grid would handle so many electric vehicles, how much pollution is caused creating electricity, building batteries and mining lithium. I also understand that the supply of lithium is getting low.
And then there’s the fact that most fluorocarbon pollution comes from cargo ships. Changing all of cars to electric won’t make a dent in the overall amount of gasses released into the atmosphere.

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by retiredguy123

Timeshare vehicles? I think you need a different name. It may turn off a lot of people who got ripped off buying a condo timeshare.

I completely agree. The name represents the idea, marketing will have to also be worked on - LOL!

[MartinSE]

Originally Posted by tuccillo

A few thoughts:

1) It is easier to install EV charging stations at existing gas stations than some form of natural gas (LNG or CNG). All existing gas stations have power already in place. Not all existing gas stations have natural gas.

2) There is little work being done on natural gas powered passenger cars, either LNG or CNG, when compared to EVs. Yes, a few models exist but there is little infrastructure to support them. It does make sense for commercial vehicles that leave from and return to the same facility. It is the same issue as with hydrogen powered fuel cells in passenger cars. Hydrogen powered fuel cells certainly makes sense for commercial vehicles leaving from and returning to the same facility, if the cost of hydrogen comes down.

3) There is a substantial amount of money committed to building battery factories in the US. Most automakers have already committed to building only EVs by 2030 or 2035. A large amount of money has already been spent by Tesla on their Supercharger stations and EA on their DC fast chargers. The Federal Government is throwing a lot of money at the installation of EV charging stations. The die is cast.

4) With regard to CO2 emissions, transportation accounts for about 20% of global CO2 emissions. About half of that 20% is from cars and busses.

All very good points. Sadly the electricity at gas stations is probably not sufficient to put in more than one supercharger. But, the idea is sound. Even more important I think it would be a good idea to repurpose the existing stations. Whether or not it is less expensive to repurpose to LPG (large high pressure tanks) or electric (large high current service) is beyond my pay grade.

I personally hope before we invent too heavily into local charging stations (long distance I think will be needed under most possible futures) that we consider the retirement of personal vehicles. I know a LOT of people will be turned off by the idea, but shared vehicle pools would have a massive impact on pollution since far few vehicles would be needed. It would save on rare earth materials. It would massively reduce congestion on roads. And on and on.

But, it would require someone to get the ball rolling - that is big bucks. Tesla has indicated they are considering the idea.