[Golfingnut]

I am still a Methodist (considering atheism), but a Christian none the less. Not sure if that is considered religious or not. In my humble opinion, this is definitely about religious freedom.

That is, religious freedom for all and not just for us Christians. This issue should be as easy to accept as allowing women to vote. I see us in a wonderful time right now that has laws being passed insuring that all Americans are allowed to practice their rights and freedoms that certain faiths still hide to do.

[donb9006]

If I came here gushing over how wonderful Islam was, now that I've had my epiphany, what would you be posting? I'd bet you'd be telling me how misguided I was, how it was Satan trying to deceive me. You'd be telling me how Christianity was the only way into Heaven. Only through Christ can I be saved. Am I close?

So full of what? Nonbelief? I personally feel most religions are full of something too...hate, BS, ignorance, take your pick... Remember, your religion was started by illiterate, and ignorant people with no science to explain thngs.

Why do you fear questioning so? If you firmly believe something, you should be able to back up WHY you believe it. There's a reason religions like to get ahold of children...their brains are highly malleable. Once the belief is there...it's hard to shake it loose. We take our childhood beliefs into adulthood...unfortunately.

I'm religious too...my religion is the religion of "I have no idea". I have no idea how everything got here. I've heard a WHOLE LOT of other peoples opinions. But I've yet heard one that passes my logic test.

And yes, I'm a lowly man who can't possibly understand. And that's the point, I can accept that. I can accept the fact that I don't know or understand something...yet. I don't cling to falsehoods just because everyone else believes it. I'm an individual, not 7 of 9 or part of a herd.

Don't be afraid of differing ideas. They should validate what you already believe...or tell you that you may be barking up the wrong tree... Be open minded...

[quirky3]

Originally Posted by blueash

Sorry to disagree GG but choosing this place is not mean it is symbolic. When the members of the dominant religion in this country feel it has become their "right" because this is a "Christian" country to place symbols of their gods and their books and their tenets on public land and buildings the message heard by many is a big FU to people who don't share those stories. Apparently some Christians feel that having to opportunity to express their beliefs in their own homes, in their own tax-free buildings, in their schools, and dominating the culture in the country is not enough. Apparently needing to see symbols of their faith displayed on property they don't own or religiously control is needed to reaffirm their beliefs. When the reason given is that the public location is equally available to others and that the placement of Christian symbols is not any endorsement by government of that religion then members of any religion or non-religion must be allowed to counterbalance the appearance of government favoritism so as to prove there is none. Thus Oklahoma is perfect. If the heart of the bible belt understands that unless atheists, Satanists, Mormons, Hindus, Jains, Muslims, Animists, Pastafarians.... etc. are given equal opportunity to express themselves in a public forum then and only then does the promise of religious freedom have any chance of being fulfilled. If only Christian (which Christian? I seem to recall wars fought over which version is "true") symbols are to be on public display then the first amendment means nothing. Religion is only mentioned twice in our Constitution. Both times the Founders were taking the time to make clear that religion has nothing to do with governing. So if seeing a statue of Satan, or of Krishna, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster at the Florida state capitol Florida Capital approves Pastafarian Holiday display « Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster given equal consideration on public property and in public hearings makes Christians uncomfortable then all that needs to happen is for Christians to push for laws to prohibit the use of public facilities for any religious purpose. I am sure the Satanists will support such legislation.

Excellent post, BlueAsh! Equal respect to all religions. No one religion is the "official government religion" of the U.S. And it should not be represented that way in government-related settings. It still gives everyone equal opportunity to their own beliefs.

[buggyone]

Originally Posted by Golfingnut

I am still a Methodist (considering atheism), but a Christian none the less. Not sure if that is considered religious or not. In my humble opinion, this is definitely about religious freedom.

That is, religious freedom for all and not just for us Christians. This issue should be as easy to accept as allowing women to vote. I see us in a wonderful time right now that has laws being passed insuring that all Americans are allowed to practice their rights and freedoms that certain faiths still hide to do.

Not so sure of your second paragraph. Surely you do not believe that a pagan religion in the US should be allowed to practice virgin sacrifices; or a religious sect be allowed to have marriages between men and little girls; or religions practicing honor killings in the name of their church. Some would consider these to be religious freedoms. I don't and I doubt that even in Parkersburg would you find those that would agree those are religious freedoms that should be allowed in America.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by ilovetv

Actually, Jesus DID author and "write down" EVERYTHING about Himself, in the Hebrew Scriptures He-GOD inspired men to write in the Scrolls, in which He was schooled in the Temple and taught as a Rabbi (and hence was not "illiterate"!!!!!!!!!).

John 3
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God....
5 ...Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24 NASB - The Resurrection - But on the first day - Bible Gateway

So, "inspiring" others to write about you decades later...IS writing about it? ??? I'm REALLY confused by that as a proof that Jesus wrote something himself or was literate. I say this because there are no contemporary writings by or about Jesus. Where are these supposed scrolls that these people wrote? Why didn't anyone keep anything? There's no 10 commandment tablets, no Ark, no goblet...nothing but stories.

You posted 2 quotes...neither talk about Jesus writing anything OR even asking someone to write something. So, I don't understand the relevance.

Besides...you can't use your own book to prove something about your own book...think about that for a while. If I write a book, I can't cite my own book to prove what's in my book. You can't use the Bible to prove something said in the Bible. And unfortunately, writings by religious people is all there is. Believers writing for believers.

I hear the Vatican is full of historical documents and artifacts...why keep everything hidden away? Unless you have a reason for it to be hidden?

[onslowe]

Gee Whillikers! I can't find my original 2100 year old copy of the 'Palestine Post' with the headline "Tomb Vacant! Centurions Stumped!" Guess mom threw it out with my '50's baseball player cards. Gee, no sense in arguing anymore, I can't play 'show and tell!'

No reason to bring up the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Son of God scroll in particular. Probably written by 'religious people' and we all know about them.

I'll just forget about this thread and curl up with a good ol' Dan Brown book. He tells it like it really is, by gum.

[Golfingnut]

Originally Posted by buggyone

Not so sure of your second paragraph. Surely you do not believe that a pagan religion in the US should be allowed to practice virgin sacrifices; or a religious sect be allowed to have marriages between men and little girls; or religions practicing honor killings in the name of their church. Some would consider these to be religious freedoms. I don't and I doubt that even in Parkersburg would you find those that would agree those are religious freedoms that should be allowed in America.

You can research and find those things you bring up and find they are against the laws of this country. Practicing Muslim, Hinduism or even atheism is not against the law. Don,t be confused by the reference to satan as that is a media trick to take the focus off the truth that is being sought.

[rubicon]

This thread is illustrative of a number of things.

First like politicians people of differing philosophies will seldom agree and if there on the fringe of said philosophy they will never agree.

Secondly , by its very nature, it is an easier argument to mouth all or nothing and to otherwise berate people of belief .

Third some people are still afraid of Christians because of the commitment it requires.

Fourth: non-believers argue not separation of church and state but destruction of the Christian religion and perhaps with some, all religion. Those pseudo-intellectuals feel superior to believers but in my humble view intellectualize themselves into irrelevance and betray themselves as did
Madalyn O' Hair who demonstrated her bitterness and hatred for Christians

[onslowe]

Very well written and thought out, Rubicon. Thanks for the wise contribution.

[Golfingnut]

A wonderful discussion turning sour.

[graciegirl]

Boy Howdy and love to Rubicon and Onslowe who can keep their humor and patience. When I grow up I want to be just like them.


Blessings too.


And I can't help being myself, questioning, hoping, watching and hopefully learning. And yes praying because most of the time, I believe.


Please close this thread. It is very disturbing and ugly to me and I imagine to the majority of readers. This did not begin as a question of the separation of Church and State. It began as a question of whether the end justified the means in this issue of folks from another part of the country coming to the Bible belt and stirring things up, I believe maliciously.


I don't have a problem with the separation of Church and State. I have a huge problem with viciousness and meanness for no good reason.

[donb9006]

Originally Posted by onslowe

Gee Whillikers! I can't find my original 2100 year old copy of the 'Palestine Post' with the headline "Tomb Vacant! Centurions Stumped!" Guess mom threw it out with my '50's baseball player cards. Gee, no sense in arguing anymore, I can't play 'show and tell!'

No reason to bring up the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Son of God scroll in particular. Probably written by 'religious people' and we all know about them.

I'll just forget about this thread and curl up with a good ol' Dan Brown book. He tells it like it really is, by gum.

You'd think that SOMEONE would deem it important enough to document... The people involved perhaps? You'd think they'd find SOMEONE to write some of this down...if nothing else to insure they didn't forget anything. After all, it's God talking, you should write it down.. I certainly would.

If you're going to base your entire life on something, I'd expect you'd want more than someones "word". Or is that just the skeptic in me?

The scrolls are Jewish and say NOTHING about Jesus. So why bring them up?

I just want you to know something about what you believe so fervently in. What you THINK you know isn't necessarily so. You owe it to yourself to be informed if you're going to give so much of yourself to something. I'm not trying to drive you from your faith but I do want you to know the other side of what you're told. There's a lot of misinformation spread around out there...

Originally Posted by rubicon

This thread is illustrative of a number of things.

First like politicians people of differing philosophies will seldom agree and if there on the fringe of said philosophy they will never agree.

Secondly , by its very nature, it is an easier argument to mouth all or nothing and to otherwise berate people of belief .

Third some people are still afraid of Christians because of the commitment it requires.

Fourth: non-believers argue not separation of church and state but destruction of the Christian religion and perhaps with some, all religion. Those pseudo-intellectuals feel superior to believers but in my humble view intellectualize themselves into irrelevance and betray themselves as did
Madalyn O' Hair who demonstrated her bitterness and hatred for Christians

There are Christians, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Muslims, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Jews, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Hindi who believe THEY are the only way to nirvana. There are Buddhists who believe They have the only answers. Pagans have their thoughts. Wiccans, Spiritualists, Native Americans, even Atheists...ALL believe only they KNOW. The trouble is...only one is correct.

We may never agree but did you give the other side a chance?

Originally Posted by graciegirl

Boy Howdy and love to Rubicon and Onslowe who can keep their humor and patience. When I grow up I want to be just like them.


Blessings too.


And I can't help being myself, questioning, hoping, watching and hopefully learning. And yes praying because most of the time, I believe.


Please close this thread. It is very disturbing and ugly to me and I imagine to the majority of readers. This did not begin as a question of the separation of Church and State. It began as a question of whether the end justified the means in this issue of folks from another part of the country coming to the Bible belt and stirring things up, I believe maliciously.


I don't have a problem with the separation of Church and State. I have a huge problem with viciousness and meanness for no good reason.

Who is being vicious?

If a discussion "is very disturbing and ugly to me" then why don't you simply not click on it? Have the willpower to just move on never reading it again...just pass it by. Is censorship or banning a discussion you're personally "uncomfortable with" the answer? Really? NOT discussing important issues is why things are the way they are.

[graciegirl]

Originally Posted by donb9006

You'd think that SOMEONE would deem it important enough to document... The people involved perhaps? You'd think they'd find SOMEONE to write some of this down...if nothing else to insure they didn't forget anything. After all, it's God talking, you should write it down.. I certainly would.

If you're going to base your entire life on something, I'd expect you'd want more than someones "word". Or is that just the skeptic in me?

The scrolls are Jewish and say NOTHING about Jesus. So why bring them up?

I just want you to know something about what you believe so fervently in. What you THINK you know isn't necessarily so. You owe it to yourself to be informed if you're going to give so much of yourself to something. I'm not trying to drive you from your faith but I do want you to know the other side of what you're told. There's a lot of misinformation spread around out there...



There are Christians, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Muslims, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Jews, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes. There are Hindi who believe THEY are the only way to nirvana. There are Buddhists who believe They have the only answers. Pagans have their thoughts. Wiccans, Spiritualists, Native Americans, even Atheists...ALL believe only they KNOW. The trouble is...only one is correct.

We may never agree but did you give the other side a chance?



Who is being vicious?

If a discussion "is very disturbing and ugly to me" then why don't you simply not click on it? Have the willpower to just move on never reading it again...just pass it by. Is censorship or banning a discussion you're personally "uncomfortable with" the answer? Really? NOT discussing important issues is why things are the way they are.

Well Don, The reason is THAT I started this thread and I feel responsible for the upset feelings.


And I will take your advice.


None of us fit into all the boxes that some folks try to put us in. We are very complex people. But most of us like warmth and acceptance and usually do better when we aren't made angry.


There are ways to present ideas and instigate change that are more acceptable to most people than causing them to be angry.


AND we all are a result of our upbringing. Your arguments are very good and very well researched but as the twig is bent the tree inclines. I would never make it in the front lines unless my children were threatened and then I could kill.


I know I am smart enough to make a living stealing from others but I was taught it is wrong.


No easy answers, No easy questions on the matter of philosophy of life and morals. I am kinda glad I was steered the way I was, even if over time I have had doubts about it. To each their own.

[skyguy79]

Originally Posted by donb9006

There are Christians, they believe THEY are the ONLY way to heavenly bliss, everyone else is wrong and "will see" when judgement comes.

I don't really like getting into these kinds of discussions, but there is one statement you made that I couldn't resist commenting on. Before I do though, I want to state that what I'll be stating is in no way my saying that you are right or wrong in what you state, but just my personal experience about what I've quoted.

I had 13 years of religious classes in the Catholic Schools I attended. At no time during those years did I once hear anything that indicated that "everyone else is wrong" and would not go to heaven. Nor did I even sense that thought was being implied. What we were taught is that if someone, anyone other than a Catholic lived by the principles they truly believed in and lived by, that they would receive their "Heavenly bliss."

I've always remembered one thing that we were told about this. It's a little on the far out side, but never-the-less made the point the teacher was trying to convey. Paraphrased it went something like this... If Joe Blow from a neighboring cannibal tribe truly believed in and engaged in his tribes custom of boiling other human beings then consuming them, they would go to heaven, no how disgusting we believed that act would be, and deserved it just as much as we would. True story!

Now that I got that off my chest, it's time for me to get the caldron going for dinner. Don't want to eat too late and get indigestion during the night!

[Indydealmaker]

Originally Posted by onslowe

Well said Gracie and Rubicon. And in the most civil manner possible, I do find humor in the assertion above that the Decalogue of Judaism and Christianity set up in public (Thou Shalt Not Kill, Thou Shalt Not Steal, etc) should be a "slap in the face" or a big "FU" to our oft persecuted little Satanists and other precious 'minorities.'

The Founders did not ever ever write a 'separation' of church and state into the Constitution. They said Congress could make no law 'establishing' a religion, like the Church of England! That's all. Our media experts have been trying to say that Christianity, and indeed Judaism is a monolithic 'religion' when such is absolutely laughable and reveals ignorance of terms. The founders meant specific religions, i.e. Anglicianism, Quakerism, Lutherans, etc. Not an all out prohibition against anything Christian! Please look at our history and not MSNBC. One letter, 13 years later, by Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church in Danbury, contained the seed of this errant position not embraced by the Founders.

In 1947, Justices Black and Douglas, among some others, decided it was 'separation' and applied it to the states. Something not in the Constitution suddenly became a 'corner piece' to one segment of this society, and shoved down the throat of the, excuse the bad word, majority.

Now what if a little boy or girl sees the statue of Satan and get really spooked and scared and needs psychological help? Can the parents sue the State of Oklahoma? What if the statue of Satan is 'vandalized?' Is that a hate crime to our 'live and let live folks?

Funny, I've not heard of Moslem, Buddhist, or other faith communities complaining.

Sorry, the motive here is exactly what Gracie said.

Well spoken, guys!