Let's understand how interrogation works and what "torture" does.

Most people tell more for fear of what is going to happen to them than to stop what is occurring to them. Persons actually "tortured" will say anything, agree to anything, and thus are rarely credible. However, those in proximity of persons being "tortured" often get stressed out due to anticipation, and the goal is to get them to sing like canaries. It is an effective technique when targeted towards persons considered psychologically vulnerable and physically weak.

So, what we have is another situation where people unskilled in intelligence activities, and basing their knowledge on what they've "learned" via Christie and Fleming novels, condemn how the business of information gathering and corroboration is conducted.

The real world is a tough place, yet many still view it through rose-colored spectacles from their protected towers.

Originally Posted by Bucco

I admire your hold on idealism but the "hope if we abided by the Geneva agreements or non-torture for captureds, so would other countries that might capture our young men and women." ship has sailed. They even behead and kill correspondents.

NOBODY WANTS any torture at any time. If the memos showing the results from the hard life these killers lived is ever made public perhaps folks will feel different.

I just find it interesting the way we seem to "rationalize" the killing of any innocents from the drones but are standing tall in defense of the Geneva Convention and being mean to killers of americans !

1 Geneva agreements do not apply.

2 War is hell.

3 Shipt happens.

4 Many people live hard lives but don't kill people.

Next you will want us to drop care packages to Osama bin ladin (sp)

Yoda

Originally Posted by Yoda

1 Geneva agreements do not apply.

2 War is hell.

3 Shipt happens.

4 Many people live hard lives but don't kill people.

Next you will want us to drop care packages to Osama bin ladin (sp)

Yoda

Boy have you misunderstood me !!!

I am FOR the drones....I found nothing wrong with what we did in GTMO !

My thread was aimed at those who posted on here during the campaign and other times expressing their shock and dismay that we may push these killers we had in detention, BUT ARE ABSENT in expressing shock at the drones !!!

Yoda & Steve point out a real disconnect that modern technology has created in wartime activities. It seems a lot "cleaner" to use drones to kill the enemy than to have to capture them and treat them with any sort of treaty-obligated humane-ness.

The Japanese were very aware of this, and were far more merciless to captured soldiers than even the Germans. Stalin, too, was no pussycat.

On the other hand, where we are in a situation where our own people don't speak Arabic and the loyalty of translators are questionable at best, how effective is interrogation/torture? We're dealing not just with a language problem, but a cultural one as well. We already know that Jihadists see death as a goal to be sought, not avoided.

Three points about the whole interrogation thing bothers me.

1.) If waterboarding is so effective, why was it necessary to carry it out on one lone person 163 times? And how can that now NOT be called cruel torture v. "information gathering?"

2.) If the ideological stupidity of "Don't Ask/Don't Tell" had been employed to help our nation, instead of to satisfy some homophobic egos, the policy would have been modified to allow the 50 discharged Arabic translators to remain in the military and help with the War effort.

Apparently it is ok to keep violent felons & white supremists in the military, but not individuals who did nothing wrong in civilian life except learn how to speak an incredibly different language that our war effort desperately needed. What priorities and military leadership did THAT illustrate?

3. I would argue that the Geneva Conventions always apply. We signed them as such, and unless we wish to change the language in them, we should abide by them. It is by observing them that we would then be able to bring violators to international justice. As it stands now, our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary can't leave the country for fear of arrest for war crimes, and a whole slew of lawyers, including one who is now a federal judge, will soon be facing the justice of the American people.

We are a nation of laws. The entire "operation" of our torture machine was developed not by experienced military leaders but by ideologues who seemed not to care that they knew nothing about the international rules of law. Ideology won out over professionalism. THe philosophy is no different than that of Stalin and a hundred other all-powerful political tin-horns.

Originally Posted by Bucco

Boy have you misunderstood me !!!

I am FOR the drones....I found nothing wrong with what we did in GTMO !

My thread was aimed at those who posted on here during the campaign and other times expressing their shock and dismay that we may push these killers we had in detention, BUT ARE ABSENT in expressing shock at the drones !!!

Sorry if i misunderstood you. I'm old. please accept my apology.

Yoda

Originally Posted by ptownrob

Yoda & Steve point out a real disconnect that modern technology has created in wartime activities. It seems a lot "cleaner" to use drones to kill the enemy than to have to capture them and treat them with any sort of treaty-obligated humane-ness.

The Japanese were very aware of this, and were far more merciless to captured soldiers than even the Germans. Stalin, too, was no pussycat.

On the other hand, where we are in a situation where our own people don't speak Arabic and the loyalty of translators are questionable at best, how effective is interrogation/torture? We're dealing not just with a language problem, but a cultural one as well. We already know that Jihadists see death as a goal to be sought, not avoided.

Three points about the whole interrogation thing bothers me.

1.) If waterboarding is so effective, why was it necessary to carry it out on one lone person 163 times? And how can that now NOT be called cruel torture v. "information gathering?"

2.) If the ideological stupidity of "Don't Ask/Don't Tell" had been employed to help our nation, instead of to satisfy some homophobic egos, the policy would have been modified to allow the 50 discharged Arabic translators to remain in the military and help with the War effort.

Apparently it is ok to keep violent felons & white supremists in the military, but not individuals who did nothing wrong in civilian life except learn how to speak an incredibly different language that our war effort desperately needed. What priorities and military leadership did THAT illustrate?

3. I would argue that the Geneva Conventions always apply. We signed them as such, and unless we wish to change the language in them, we should abide by them. It is by observing them that we would then be able to bring violators to international justice. As it stands now, our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary can't leave the country for fear of arrest for war crimes, and a whole slew of lawyers, including one who is now a federal judge, will soon be facing the justice of the American people.

We are a nation of laws. The entire "operation" of our torture machine was developed not by experienced military leaders but by ideologues who seemed not to care that they knew nothing about the international rules of law. Ideology won out over professionalism. THe philosophy is no different than that of Stalin and a hundred other all-powerful political tin-horns.

Point 1
They did it 163 times because every time they did it, they hit the jackpot.

Point 2
Not to sound like an Islamophobe but there are valid reasons why Arabic interpreters might be prejudged as a security risk. Being a good Muslim and the rule of taqiyya. They could also be influenced by a fatwa from millions of places. I don't say that it is right but I do say that it could be justifiable.

Point 3
There are reasons that a person could be summarily killed in a combat theater. Being a combatant, out of uniform. Sabotage. Those 2 cover a lot of them. These are not a problem with Geneva that I ever heard of.

Throughout time it has been the looser who is prosecuted for war crimes. One would have to be an idiot to want to change that.

Any country fool enough to try to prosecute our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary would in time suffer such consequences as to boggle the mind. This is why Spain has toned down its rhetoric. Any attempt to prosecute a member of the winning team for pure political reasons would only serve the lefty loony supporters of out present administration. It is thought by most Americans that these men were defending them. Political suicide.

Yoda

Yoda - what did we win??

Originally Posted by Yoda

Point 1
They did it 163 times because every time they did it, they hit the jackpot.

Point 2
Not to sound like an Islamophobe but there are valid reasons why Arabic interpreters might be prejudged as a security risk. Being a good Muslim and the rule of taqiyya. They could also be influenced by a fatwa from millions of places. I don't say that it is right but I do say that it could be justifiable.

Point 3
There are reasons that a person could be summarily killed in a combat theater. Being a combatant, out of uniform. Sabotage. Those 2 cover a lot of them. These are not a problem with Geneva that I ever heard of.

Throughout time it has been the looser who is prosecuted for war crimes. One would have to be an idiot to want to change that.

Any country fool enough to try to prosecute our former Vice-President and Defense Secretary would in time suffer such consequences as to boggle the mind. This is why Spain has toned down its rhetoric. Any attempt to prosecute a member of the winning team for pure political reasons would only serve the lefty loony supporters of out present administration. It is thought by most Americans that these men were defending them. Political suicide.

Yoda

Agree.

Point 1 - there's a big difference between theory and practice. If it works, don't stop.

Point 2 - A serious problem with Arabic interpreters (foreign native, 1st generation US) is whether the person's religion affects the interpretation. If a Sunni Muslim translates for a Shi'ite Muslin, or a Copt translates for any Muslim, or any of several combinations, the interpretation itself can be suspect. Add into the mix gender bias based on religious beliefs and the problem continues. These problems have been noted for decades by the Department of Justice and the courts, and now the Department of Defense enters the equation and it gets more severe. It's just not a simple situation.

Point 3 - The Geneva Conventions were meant to be rules to be applied where the opponents agreed by signature to the Conventions to be bound by them. When one or more of the opponents are not signatory(ies) to the Conventions, the Conventions are not binding.

As far as the International Criminal Court is concerned, the last time i checked the USA, Russia and China are not signatories to it, and it has no jurisdiction on non-signatories. So, "international justice" is a smoke-and-mirrors term.

We are indeed a nation of law - but our laws! There was no "torture machine" and the practice of "aggressive interrogation" is standard operation procedure for every intelligence entity on this planet. It's not pretty, and it's not nice, and it's darned tough - but that's the nature of being in harm's way and trying to keep people from being turned into bio-waste by the actions of the opponent.

When I was in the cross-hairs of national opponents, I appreciated every attempt by "aggressive interrogators" to gain tactical information because they made it more possible for me being here now. Given the opportunity, I'd buy them all a beer....

To understand the use of water boarding, particularly in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, KSM, we need to look at the man. KSM was not just the architect of 9/11, he was in charge of ALL Al Qaeda operations worldwide. It was not what he had done/planned that we were interested in, although that list was extensive: the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the bombing of the nightclub in Bale, the attack on the USS Cole, the attacks of the US embassies in Africa, etc. He repeated bragged that with, "...this right hand I cut off the head of the Jew, Daniel Pearl".

The men and women of our CIA have much better things to do than try to recreate what has happened in the past - their job is to learn what is coming and they are professionals at that. KSM was the leader of all AQ ops and knew what was planned for the next decade: The destruction of the Sears tower using four tanker trucks - not just how, but who and when; the plan to blow up ten planes over the Atlantic on one day, (did you think the English discovered this without having any idea what might be underway?); the idea for a shoe bomber, the planned 9/11 equivalent attacks on LA, and the list goes on and on. We will never know how many attacks were thwarted by the information we got from him, but no less an authority that George Tennat has said that it was more valuable than the rest of the information brought in by the CIA and the FBI.

We know from what KSM told the CIA that Al Qaeda is working to obtain weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear weapons and that they intend to use them against the United States first - Israel and Western Europe will follow. Imagine what ten, even small load nuclear weapons, exploded across cities in the United States would do to us. The fact that we could strike back one hundred times harder at the Muslim world is irrelevant. As the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has said,” Jews and Christians fear death, we embrace it."

Radical Islam is a new and different threat than we have ever faced before. We are used to dealing with enemies that are ‘rational’ in our framework of thinking. Their goals are to subjugate the rest of the world and herald in the coming of the 12th Imam, aka, the Mahdi. There is no compromise, no reasoning, no coming to an understanding here.

Some of us wonder, why water boarding so many times? If water boarding, sometimes described as torture, did not work the first time why do we believe that it will work the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time? How do we ever know if we got the truth or just a made-up story, through water boarding whether you believe it to be torture or not?

The answer is very straightforward – the CIA interrogators know their profession – they use whatever techniques or combination thereof and outside checking of facts to know when they were true and when they were not. As to the number of times it took that too is understandable when once again we look at KSM as a man. He is an unwavering Muslim who believes without reservation that what he has done is right and Allah blesses what he has planned to do. On top of all that, he is a very intelligent and incredibly brave man; as well as being extremely competent as what he does. I believe that one of the great mistakes we have made is to underestimate our enemy. They are strong, intelligent and resourceful.

I have gone on far too long, but do want to say in closing that I am deeply concerned that the nation I love is becoming too much in love with political correctness and seeking approval of other nations, rather than working for our survival and the extension of liberty to other nations.

Originally Posted by BBQMan

To understand the use of water boarding, particularly in the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, KSM, we need to look at the man. KSM was not just the architect of 9/11, he was in charge of ALL Al Qaeda operations worldwide. It was not what he had done/planned that we were interested in, although that list was extensive: the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, the bombing of the nightclub in Bale, the attack on the USS Cole, the attacks of the US embassies in Africa, etc. He repeated bragged that with, "...this right hand I cut off the head of the Jew, Daniel Pearl".

The men and women of our CIA have much better things to do than try to recreate what has happened in the past - their job is to learn what is coming and they are professionals at that. KSM was the leader of all AQ ops and knew what was planned for the next decade: The destruction of the Sears tower using four tanker trucks - not just how, but who and when; the plan to blow up ten planes over the Atlantic on one day, (did you think the English discovered this without having any idea what might be underway?); the idea for a shoe bomber, the planned 9/11 equivalent attacks on LA, and the list goes on and on. We will never know how many attacks were thwarted by the information we got from him, but no less an authority that George Tennat has said that it was more valuable than the rest of the information brought in by the CIA and the FBI.

We know from what KSM told the CIA that Al Qaeda is working to obtain weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear weapons and that they intend to use them against the United States first - Israel and Western Europe will follow. Imagine what ten, even small load nuclear weapons, exploded across cities in the United States would do to us. The fact that we could strike back one hundred times harder at the Muslim world is irrelevant. As the President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has said,” Jews and Christians fear death, we embrace it."

Radical Islam is a new and different threat than we have ever faced before. We are used to dealing with enemies that are ‘rational’ in our framework of thinking. Their goals are to subjugate the rest of the world and herald in the coming of the 12th Imam, aka, the Mahdi. There is no compromise, no reasoning, no coming to an understanding here.

Some of us wonder, why water boarding so many times? If water boarding, sometimes described as torture, did not work the first time why do we believe that it will work the tenth, hundredth or thousandth time? How do we ever know if we got the truth or just a made-up story, through water boarding whether you believe it to be torture or not?

The answer is very straightforward – the CIA interrogators know their profession – they use whatever techniques or combination thereof and outside checking of facts to know when they were true and when they were not. As to the number of times it took that too is understandable when once again we look at KSM as a man. He is an unwavering Muslim who believes without reservation that what he has done is right and Allah blesses what he has planned to do. On top of all that, he is a very intelligent and incredibly brave man; as well as being extremely competent as what he does. I believe that one of the great mistakes we have made is to underestimate our enemy. They are strong, intelligent and resourceful.

I have gone on far too long, but do want to say in closing that I am deeply concerned that the nation I love is becoming too much in love with political correctness and seeking approval of other nations, rather than working for our survival and the extension of liberty to other nations.

Outstanding post.

Originally Posted by BBQMan

Radical Islam is a new and different threat than we have ever faced before. We are used to dealing with enemies that are ‘rational’ in our framework of thinking. Their goals are to subjugate the rest of the world and herald in the coming of the 12th Imam, aka, the Mahdi. There is no compromise, no reasoning, no coming to an understanding here.

I must say that I agree with most of what you say. You seem to have a firm grasp on the issue.

However, the paragraph starting with "Radical Islam," misses the true situation. You describe as radical, those who are good Muslims. Those that you describe are following the Koran and the several hadith. They are doing what Islam says to do. It would be the bad Muslims (radicals) who would be least likely to behave in the way that you describe "Radical Muslims." This is what most non Muslims do not understand. It is the good Muslim who, if he follows his faith, wants to subjugate, convert or kill us. Remember, they are doing Gods work. We should not die of ignorance.

Yoda

what ever it takes....the only way to deal with the likes of those sworn to kill as many Americans as possible...man, woman, children...anybody!!!

There is no room for the so called political correctness which is merely a fancy term for NOT doing what is RIGHT/CORRECT.

Walk softly and carry a very big stick....and use it!!!!!!!!

BTK

Interesting developments today.....

"President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday."


AND WORTH NOTING...

"Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

Originally Posted by Bucco

Interesting developments today.....

"President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday."


AND WORTH NOTING...

"Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

I am not in the least surprised.

Question: If anyone of you had a darling sweet 6 year old daughter who was kidnapped by a pair of prior conviction rapists/sociopaths and 1 of the 2 perps was captured and knew where your daughter was... and hypothetically you could, would you authorize these coersive interrogation techniques to get the perp to talk?

is reflective of a society that has a problem with calling a spade a spade.
I maintain doing WHAT EVER IT TAKES to get the required information.

Those who hide behind the pretense of the hallowed high ground of...we are more humane and don't do that sort of thing or we use coercive interrogation techniques is bull honkey!!! They too will sing to a different tune when the have a personal stake in the equation instead of an intellectual, uninvolved hypothesis.

WHAT EVER IT TAKES!!!!!!!!!

BTK