As a trannsplanted Hoosier I am thrilled with the news that Bayh is quitting. I haven't been this happy since Dan Quayle defeated his father.

Originally Posted by cologal

Ok then....how many bills were read during the previous administrations? This reading of the bill thing is just so much smoke. When the Repubs required the bill to be read before the Senate NO ONE WAS THERE.

Now to the stimulus package...the Repubs voted against it but then they show up in their districts for ribbon cuttings. The height of hypocrisy.

They vote against it and then take credit.....losers.

This thread is about the PRESENT...NOT THE PAST !

IF you read my posts it is all about this administration.....if you want me to say that both parties do stuff....I OPENLY WILL AGREE.

But this President ran on TRANSPARENCY AND A lot of other things that are just flat out not happening.

Why can you not see the lying going on....are you so party blind ?

Originally Posted by Donna2

If a conservative doesn't believe in God--he keeps it to himself.
If a liberal doesn't believe in God--he wants it (God) eliminated.

If a modern-day conservative believes in God, however, he wants to make sure everyone else does. And if one suggests, for example, taking prayer out of schools, this is "an attack on God". A modern-day conservative christian also makes false claims about the United States being established as a Christian Nation. A modern-day conservative needs to read some Thomas Jefferson.

Originally Posted by Donna2

If a conservative doesn't like meat--he don't eat it.
If a liberal doesn't eat meat, he wants to outlaw meat.

However, if a modern-day conservative doesn't like abortion, he wants to outlaw it.
If a modern-day conservative doesn't like gay marriage, he wants to outlaw it.
If a modern-day conservative doesn't like certain books, he tries to get them banned from the library.

Originally Posted by Donna2

If a conservative does not like guns--he won't buy one.
If a liberal does not like guns, he wants to outlaw them.

Here, at least, I agree with you completely.

Modern-day liberals dont "get" the following points.

- in some places, guns are 'tools' (like where my mom lives in rural Indiana) frequently used to eliminate varmints.
- 'back in the day' a gun *was* the then-modern-day equivalent of an assault rifle.
- kids used to have GUN CLUBS in SCHOOLS. (Gee, how did we EVER survive?)

These days, a modern-day liberal has an uncontrollable urge to get into your wallet because they "know better". A modern-day conservative has an uncontrollable urge to make proclamations on what goes on in your bedroom for precisely the same alleged reason.

Please note my use of "modern day". Used to be Conservatives believed in leaving people alone as long as nobody else's rights were violated. Liberals, at least from my point of view, used to believe in a more active government, but not the "government always knows best" attitude we see today.

A modern-day conservative christian also makes false claims about the United States being established as a Christian Nation.

You're way off on that one. Maybe it's time for a history lesson.

If a modern-day conservative doesn't like gay marriage, he wants to outlaw it.

You cannot out law something that has never been the law for thousands of years.

If a modern-day conservative doesn't like certain books, he tries to get them banned from the library.

If you are referring to the Sarah Palin incident, It never happened.

djplong "...false claims about the United States being established as a Christian Nation. A modern-day conservative needs to read some Thomas Jefferson."

Just skim the Federalist Papers. One, only one of many examples of the Founding Fathers' strong beliefs in a Biblical creator, an almighty God, is found in Federalist 2. Written to presuade others to ratify the Constitution:

"It has often given me pleasure to observe that independent America was not composed of detached and distant territories, but that one connected, fertile, widespreading country was the portion of our western sons of liberty. Providence has in a particular manner blessed it with a variety of soils and productions, and watered it with innumerable streams, for the delight and accommodation of its inhabitants. A succession of navigable waters forms a kind of chain round its borders, as if to bind it together; while the most noble rivers in the world, running at convenient distances, present them with highways for the easy communication of friendly aids, and the mutual transportation and exchange of their various commodities.

With equal pleasure I have as often taken notice that Providence has been pleased to give this one connected country to one united people--a people descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language,
professing the same religion , attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs, and who, by their joint counsels, arms, and efforts, fighting side by side throughout a long and bloody war, have nobly established general liberty and independence.

This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of brethren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous, and alien sovereignties."
Please, give me a break...

Originally Posted by djplong

If a modern-day conservative believes in God, however, he wants to make sure everyone else does. And if one suggests, for example, taking prayer out of schools, this is "an attack on God". A modern-day conservative christian also makes false claims about the United States being established as a Christian Nation. A modern-day conservative needs to read some Thomas Jefferson.



However, if a modern-day conservative doesn't like abortion, he wants to outlaw it.
If a modern-day conservative doesn't like gay marriage, he wants to outlaw it.
If a modern-day conservative doesn't like certain books, he tries to get them banned from the library.



Here, at least, I agree with you completely.

Modern-day liberals dont "get" the following points.

- in some places, guns are 'tools' (like where my mom lives in rural Indiana) frequently used to eliminate varmints.
- 'back in the day' a gun *was* the then-modern-day equivalent of an assault rifle.
- kids used to have GUN CLUBS in SCHOOLS. (Gee, how did we EVER survive?)

These days, a modern-day liberal has an uncontrollable urge to get into your wallet because they "know better". A modern-day conservative has an uncontrollable urge to make proclamations on what goes on in your bedroom for precisely the same alleged reason.

Please note my use of "modern day". Used to be Conservatives believed in leaving people alone as long as nobody else's rights were violated. Liberals, at least from my point of view, used to believe in a more active government, but not the "government always knows best" attitude we see today.

You should consider dealing with facts rather than your little verbal games.

Originally Posted by cashman

You should consider dealing with facts rather than your little verbal games.

Originally Posted by dklassen

You're way off on that one. Maybe it's time for a history lesson.

How am I 'way off'? The Constitution separates church and state and the Federalist Papers explain it. Thomas Jefferson himself said he saw no redeeming value in Christianity (in the orthodox way it was being practiced back then). Let's remember that the Constitution states:

"Congress shall pas no law respecting an establishment of religion"

It does NOT state "...establishment of A religion".

In the above, "establishment" is a NOUN as opposed to a verb. A 'church' is an establishment of religion, as is a prochial school these days. Kind of like how a pub is an establishment of alcohol

The Constition goes on to say "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof".

When the authorities start breaking into your house to prevent you from making your dinner prayers, then I'll be on the side of those being persecuted.

I'm not being sarcastic here - in all seriousness, what is it that you think I'm missing?

Originally Posted by djplong

How am I 'way off'? The Constitution separates church and state and the Federalist Papers explain it. Thomas Jefferson himself said he saw no redeeming value in Christianity (in the orthodox way it was being practiced back then). Let's remember that the Constitution states:

"Congress shall pas no law respecting an establishment of religion"

It does NOT state "...establishment of A religion".

In the above, "establishment" is a NOUN as opposed to a verb. A 'church' is an establishment of religion, as is a prochial school these days. Kind of like how a pub is an establishment of alcohol

The Constition goes on to say "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof".

When the authorities start breaking into your house to prevent you from making your dinner prayers, then I'll be on the side of those being persecuted.

I'm not being sarcastic here - in all seriousness, what is it that you think I'm missing?

You refuse to consider the facts. Please quote the constitution where it says we must separate the Church from the State. You are quoting those who want to change history rather and you are not actually reading the constitution.

Liberals do this all the time. They believe each other and forget the facts.

This is a complete waste of time because when liberals don't like the truth they just quote each others lies.

djplong, with the utmost respect, although Thomas Jefferson was considered by many a great statesman, he wasn't the only designer of The Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers or other historical documents that went into drafting this country's principals and laws. Why do you reference only Jefferson?
Our founding fathers didn't need to "establish" a religion. They, and their forefathers who came to America already had their own religious beliefs. The Puritans came to keep their freedoms within these religious beliefs from being trampled on by The Church of England. The Pilgrims' course to America brought them because they found it necessary to separate from The Church of England.
They wanted a nation where they could worship, conduct business and teach their children with the help of a Sovereign God, not a Sovereign King.

Read The Declaration of Independence my friend: WHEN in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation....

The members of Congress of the Thirteen States, which included Jefferson, but not he sololy, further address the King of England:

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Jefferson believed in God. It is believed that his beliefs were more toward a Unitarian belief.

How do you think Yale University was started?

Originally Posted by bkcunningham1

djplong, with the utmost respect, although Thomas Jefferson was considered by many a great statesman, he wasn't the only designer of The Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers or other historical documents that went into drafting this country's principals and laws. Why do you reference only Jefferson?
Our founding fathers didn't need to "establish" a religion. They, and their forefathers who came to America already had their own religious beliefs. The Puritans came to keep their freedoms within these religious beliefs from being trampled on by The Church of England. The Pilgrims' course to America brought them because they found it necessary to separate from The Church of England.
They wanted a nation where they could worship, conduct business and teach their children with the help of a Sovereign God, not a Sovereign King.

Read The Declaration of Independence my friend: WHEN in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation....

The members of Congress of the Thirteen States, which included Jefferson, but not he sololy, further address the King of England:

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Jefferson believed in God. It is believed that his beliefs were more toward a Unitarian belief.

How do you think Yale University was started?

Well said. I am impressed with your knowledge.

Originally Posted by bkcunningham1

djplong, with the utmost respect, although Thomas Jefferson was considered by many a great statesman, he wasn't the only designer of The Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, Federalist Papers or other historical documents that went into drafting this country's principals and laws. Why do you reference only Jefferson?
Our founding fathers didn't need to "establish" a religion. They, and their forefathers who came to America already had their own religious beliefs. The Puritans came to keep their freedoms within these religious beliefs from being trampled on by The Church of England. The Pilgrims' course to America brought them because they found it necessary to separate from The Church of England.
They wanted a nation where they could worship, conduct business and teach their children with the help of a Sovereign God, not a Sovereign King.

Read The Declaration of Independence my friend: WHEN in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation....

The members of Congress of the Thirteen States, which included Jefferson, but not he sololy, further address the King of England:

We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the name and by the authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, FREE AND INDEPENDENT STATES; that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; and that, as free and independent states, they have full power to levy war, conclude peace, contract alliances, establish commerce, and do all other acts and things which independent states may of right do. And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.

Jefferson believed in God. It is believed that his beliefs were more toward a Unitarian belief.

How do you think Yale University was started?

BK. You obviously did your homework. Kudos to you.

The founding fathers were certainly godly men, but a few of them would not subscribe to the Apostles Creed.
They were not afraid of religion, like the Left wants people to believe, they were afraid of a state controlled religion.
And contrary to history revisionists' none of them were atheists.

I don't dispute for a single minute that they (the founding fathers) were religious men. I believe that their genius was in seeing the danger of mixing state and religion. When I have more time (hopefuilly tonight) I will more thoroughly repsond to the above posts.

That being said, I'm *ecstatic* that we're able to keep this discussion civil!