[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by lkagele

Just what we need. The government running health insurance. Everyone knows the government is so cost conscious and proficient in running all the programs it manages.

So let’s fix the government it used to work and could again if we bought it back from big business. The of government is to serve the people not the other way around.

[Byte1]

What has happened to America's dignity when they can be bribed with a beer and a burger to get them vaccinated? You would think that it's worth at least a carton of smokes and a pizza. You get at least that for your vote come election time.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by Byte1

I don't know how they rate our health care system, but I do know what I have experienced overseas and I do know how much folks in other countries PAY for their gov run fiasco. Like standing in lines for months to get treated or even examined? Do you like being put in a ward for days, that resembles living in a military barracks (with curtains) instead of a private room.....or even a shared room? Do you mind paying at least half of your paycheck in payroll deductions, when you are supposed to be middle class and have to live like our lower class earners? Before looking at the grass on the other side of the fence, thinking it is tastier....try living it before moving.
An interesting publication (kind of old by now) regarding world health care, compares health care and costs of many countries in the world. The publication is called "The Grass Is Not Always Greener" from the CATO Institute, I believe. I'm sure there will be those that wish to "politically" disparage the old publication, but I found it to be interesting none the less.
I also find it interesting that Canadians come to our country for treatment. I have a niece that is a nurse in Canada that comes to our country for treatment. Makes one wonder what she knows. Her mother died of cancer back in the late '70s, having had trouble getting treated in Canada. Not saying that she might have survived if treated earlier.
Yes, we need a better system. But, I would NEVER EVER want the gov to run or manage our health care, based on their track record.

I have also been to several countries and have never experienced what you describe. I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying it varies from country to country.

For example, I am having significant dental work done in Ecuador, bone graphs for jaw reconstruction, 5 implants, bridges, sinus surgery and more. No waiting, 1/4 the cost, $6000 vs $24000 here, and that $6000 includes 3 round trip flights, AirBnB while there and food, etc. the work being done is as good or better than here.

My wife and I considered migrating to Ecuador when we found their government provided healthcare covers everything including dental and optical and would cost us about $97/mth. Oh and there is no deductible.

As to how they rate it our healthcare system. That is pretty easy, the number of cases of infant mortality are publicly reported. Take that number per capita and our infant mortally is higher than any other industrialized country. Number of cases of heart attacks per capita and outcome, or deaths, is also higher.

And we pay 2.5 times more than people with universal healthcare even when taking into account the amount they pay in taxes to provide the healthcare.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

There are numerous reports that all say basically the same thing - from WHO, UN, AMA, and here is a link to the Common Wealth Fund study.

Multinational Comparisons of Health Systems Data, 2019 | Commonwealth Fund

Political organizations, all of them...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

I have also been to several countries and have never experienced what you describe. I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying it varies from country to country.

For example, I am having significant dental work done in Ecuador, bone graphs for jaw reconstruction, 5 implants, bridges, sinus surgery and more. No waiting, 1/4 the cost, $6000 vs $24000 here, and that $6000 includes 3 round trip flights, AirBnB while there and food, etc. the work being done is as good or better than here.

My wife and I considered migrating to Ecuador when we found their government provided healthcare covers everything including dental and optical and would cost us about $97/mth. Oh and there is no deductible.

As to how they rate it our healthcare system. That is pretty easy, the number of cases of infant mortality are publicly reported. Take that number per capita and our infant mortally is higher than any other industrialized country. Number of cases of heart attacks per capita and outcome, or deaths, is also higher.

And we pay 2.5 times more than people with universal healthcare even when taking into account the amount they pay in taxes to provide the healthcare.

Where do you think the R&D for those procedures occurred?

What will you do when there is a medical mistake made?

Yes, medical tourism is a thing, but not without significant risks...

10 Hidden Dangers of Medical Tourism - Sciencebeta

[chet2020]

Originally Posted by Byte1

Those that keep asking for socialism, aka gov run health care have never lived in a country that has it. If they knew how much EVERYONE's payroll deduction is to pay for it, and saw how it is implemented in those other countries, they would be grateful for our great country. Yes, we do need some form of insurance reform, such as open state border shopping for insurance. And tort reform so that doctors didn't have to pay hundreds of thousands a year in malpractice premiums.

Of course countries with single payer have payroll deductions to pay for health care, just like we have deductions for private health insurance and Medicare. I'm semi-retired and pay $1,800/month COBRA until we are eligible for Medicare. Prior to that, we paid $300/month out-of-pocket for the plan, the employer paid the $1,500/month. But that $1,500 was essentially coming out of my paycheck also, because that money was not available to me as salary. So the question is, if I got $1,800/month extra in salary, what would my deduction be for single-payer healthcare? I think it would be substantially less than $1,800/month.

And that's a COBRA plan with a group rate. If I go out on the market, who knows if I can even get health insurance?

I don't think private health insurance enthusiasts need to worry, we won't be going to single payer in my lifetime. Well, except Medicare, which I thought was a good program that worked out nicely for my Mom.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by JMintzer

Where do you think the R&D for those procedures occurred?

What will you do when there is a medical mistake made?

Yes, medical tourism is a thing, but not without significant risks...

10 Hidden Dangers of Medical Tourism - Sciencebeta

R&D leadership is also a thing of the past in the US sadly. US Healthcare industry is totally LASER focused on finding the most profitable form of "treatment" of issues, and almost no "cures" have been found in decades. For an example, look at the recent "innovative" research into Alzheimer's. 35% chance of complications that can be fatal, and no evidence it cures, stops, or even slows the disease. But, it does affect one of the signs of the disease (plaque buildup on the brain), and it does cost $56,000 per year. Almost $5,000 per month. You know WHY they can charge $5,000/mth. You would know if you know anyone that has gone through having a relative with Alzheimer's.

This is the essence of predatory capitalism. Extorting as much as possible from people. The FDA approval to sell this drug even states there is no significant evidence to support it for treatment. But, people are so desperate for something, that the FDA is going to allow this company to extort a fortune from the victims for years while it runs more studies to see if it MIGHT help.$5,000/mth for something that might help, maybe. For the rest of their lives.

In any case, more R&D is being done around the world into innovative medical technologies than in the US.

As an ex-CEO of a healthcare company said recently, "There is NO money in finding cures, you can only sell the cure to a person once., the real profit is in treating things, you can sell patients treatments for the rest of their lives".

Yeah, I want to trust my healthcare to people with that attitude.

And if my dentist makes a mistake I will fly back to Ecuador and he will correct it. He hasn't and I am not worried. If it becomes a life and death emergency, I will go to the VA healthcare facility and have it taken care of. If it is not life-threatening a round-trip ticket to Ecuador is $450. I can make 3 round trips there for the cost of one crown here ($1200). A crown in Ecuador is $400. Less than one round trip ticket.

I have in the past PAID US prices for dental work and had negative outcomes, and I am not certain, but I doubt ANYONE has ever died from a botched crown.

[stanley]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

I have also been to several countries and have never experienced what you describe. I am not saying you are wrong, I am saying it varies from country to country.

For example, I am having significant dental work done in Ecuador, bone graphs for jaw reconstruction, 5 implants, bridges, sinus surgery and more. No waiting, 1/4 the cost, $6000 vs $24000 here, and that $6000 includes 3 round trip flights, AirBnB while there and food, etc. the work being done is as good or better than here.

My wife and I considered migrating to Ecuador when we found their government provided healthcare covers everything including dental and optical and would cost us about $97/mth. Oh and there is no deductible.

As to how they rate it our healthcare system. That is pretty easy, the number of cases of infant mortality are publicly reported. Take that number per capita and our infant mortally is higher than any other industrialized country. Number of cases of heart attacks per capita and outcome, or deaths, is also higher.

And we pay 2.5 times more than people with universal healthcare even when taking into account the amount they pay in taxes to provide the healthcare.

You're using Ecuador as an example of great national health care? Is that what you are saying?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by stanley

You're using Ecuador as an example of great national health care? Is that what you are saying?

I am saying even a very poor (broke) country like Ecuador manages to provide universal healthcare for its citizens. And they take it one step further, If you want to move there, you don't have to be a citizen, you don't have to have paid into the system all your life, you can join at the same rates would citizens get. (They also expats who are not citizens to vote - ahem...)

I could have compared the US to the other 17 first-world industrialized countries that ALL provide better healthcare at less than 1/2 the cost Americans pay. But, why bother.

Ecuador is an excellent example of what is possible.

Immigrants and expatriates from the United States to Ecuador are mostly retirees who take advantage of social services. It is estimated that about 5,000 to 10,000 American expatriates now live in the country.

Have you lived there? Or is your opinion based on news articles by the media?

[Bucco]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

I am saying even a very poor (broke) country like Ecuador manages to provide universal healthcare for its citizens. And they take it one step further, If you want to move there, you don't have to be a citizen, you don't have to have paid into the system all your life, you can join at the same rates would citizens get. (They also expats who are not citizens to vote - ahem...)

I could have compared the US to the other 17 first-world industrialized countries that ALL provide better healthcare at less than 1/2 the cost Americans pay. But, why bother.

Ecuador is an excellent example of what is possible.

Immigrants and expatriates from the United States to Ecuador are mostly retirees who take advantage of social services. It is estimated that about 5,000 to 10,000 American expatriates now live in the country.

Have you lived there? Or is your opinion based on news articles by the media?

Many Americans seem to look down on other countries, and ignore our own "warts". Based on what, I am not sure.

We need to improve a lot in our country and forget making fun of others...better use of our time.

[stanley]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

Have you lived there? Or is your opinion based on news articles by the media?

Where did I opine? I just asked a question.
Why are so many "people" confrontational?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Originally Posted by stanley

Where did I opine? I just asked a question.
Why are so many "people" confrontational?

I took your question and confrontational, I apologize if that was not your intent.

And to directly answer, NO I am not saying Ecuador is an exam ple of a GREAT healthcare system, I am saying it is an example of something that is better than what we have.

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

R&D leadership is also a thing of the past in the US sadly. US Healthcare industry is totally LASER focused on finding the most profitable form of "treatment" of issues, and almost no "cures" have been found in decades. For an example, look at the recent "innovative" research into Alzheimer's. 35% chance of complications that can be fatal, and no evidence it cures, stops, or even slows the disease. But, it does affect one of the signs of the disease (plaque buildup on the brain), and it does cost $56,000 per year. Almost $5,000 per month. You know WHY they can charge $5,000/mth. You would know if you know anyone that has gone through having a relative with Alzheimer's.

This is the essence of predatory capitalism. Extorting as much as possible from people. The FDA approval to sell this drug even states there is no significant evidence to support it for treatment. But, people are so desperate for something, that the FDA is going to allow this company to extort a fortune from the victims for years while it runs more studies to see if it MIGHT help.$5,000/mth for something that might help, maybe. For the rest of their lives.

In any case, more R&D is being done around the world into innovative medical technologies than in the US.

As an ex-CEO of a healthcare company said recently, "There is NO money in finding cures, you can only sell the cure to a person once., the real profit is in treating things, you can sell patients treatments for the rest of their lives".

Yeah, I want to trust my healthcare to people with that attitude.

And if my dentist makes a mistake I will fly back to Ecuador and he will correct it. He hasn't and I am not worried. If it becomes a life and death emergency, I will go to the VA healthcare facility and have it taken care of. If it is not life-threatening a round-trip ticket to Ecuador is $450. I can make 3 round trips there for the cost of one crown here ($1200). A crown in Ecuador is $400. Less than one round trip ticket.

I have in the past PAID US prices for dental work and had negative outcomes, and I am not certain, but I doubt ANYONE has ever died from a botched crown.

You continue to make these outlandish claims with nothing to back them up...

Un-freakin'-believable...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by GrumpyOldMan

I am saying even a very poor (broke) country like Ecuador manages to provide universal healthcare for its citizens. And they take it one step further, If you want to move there, you don't have to be a citizen, you don't have to have paid into the system all your life, you can join at the same rates would citizens get. (They also expats who are not citizens to vote - ahem...)

I could have compared the US to the other 17 first-world industrialized countries that ALL provide better healthcare at less than 1/2 the cost Americans pay. But, why bother.

Ecuador is an excellent example of what is possible.

Immigrants and expatriates from the United States to Ecuador are mostly retirees who take advantage of social services. It is estimated that about 5,000 to 10,000 American expatriates now live in the country.

Have you lived there? Or is your opinion based on news articles by the media?

More unsubstantiated claims...

[JMintzer]

Originally Posted by stanley

Where did I opine? I just asked a question.
Why are so many "people" confrontational?

It comes from being Grumpy all of the time...